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"Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor judg... - 11/3/2008 10:39:42 PM
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helovesme72
Posts: 7
Joined: 11/3/2008
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Maybe some of you ministry leaders can help me understand what I'm dealing with here. My fiance (small-church pastor) is a wonderful man, very loving, forgiving, accepting - yet also has some traits of being very weak. I've been praying about whether to continue my relationship with him because of some very serious issues. We're both mid-30ish. When we started seeing each other, he had recently broken up with a woman he'd planned to marry. She was a late-20ish-never-married mother of 4. Their relationship broke up because she cheated on him with her ex...a scandal that earned her a 5th baby. (And somewhere during the course of this relationship, said woman convinces Pastor Fiance to co-sign on an auto loan for an SUV.) Getting involved with him is something I hesitated to do because I felt like if she was the type he'd date, then I was definitely not his type. Though I didn't want to judge him based on that, hindsight is revealing to me that this ignored red flag should have been more than enough for me to "see" the judgment he exercises. I firmly believe a pastor needs to be concerned about how his decisions and lifestyle reflect on his church. And too, he has a 12 y-o son...imagine the example that relationship was setting for him?
But let me get to the point here. Where does a woman separate what could be just an isolated case of bad judgment here and there versus a lifestyle of stupid decisions. When I met Mr. Wonderful, I was so enamored with his strong "faith." Always given to prayer. Seeking God on everything. Waiting on the Lord. Saying "the Lord will work it out." Not saying that anything is wrong with any of this - all believers should do such. But the longer I've known him, the more I see that there is rarely any "works" to go with all this faith! It's likely dealing with a superspiritual person who thinks God is gonna do everything for them. And it's terribly frustrating. 
The latest twist deals with the parenthetical SUV mentioned above. Pastor Fiance informed me 3 or 4 months ago about the loan...not because he's that open with me (he's soooo very NOT - I have to probe for EVERY ounce of critical information), but because the lender had been calling to inform him that the payments were behind. (I only hear about stuff when the heat has been turned up and the spit is likely to hit the fan soon anyway.) Apparently she was starting some medical/elderly transport business that "they" saw an opportunity to make some extra money, so he saw it as an investment/business deal to cosign on a big Suburban! (I didn't even have the heart to ask if he asked for any proof of this "business" that she was pulling him into. It's clear that she used him BIG TIME, and he has been humble enough to admit that.) Nonetheless, I tried to be patient upon learning of this, but I didn't feel like this was something we should just sit back on the sidelines and wait to see what would happen. I strongly encouraged him to start "managing" the loan himself and being vigilant to make sure that she was making the payments. I reminded him then that if she quit making them again, that he had every right to take it. For whatever reason, people think that the repo company only works for the lender. Wrong! Pay the fee, and they'll "snatch" for the individual too! I told him this, and encouraged him to be willing and ready to take that step and move to sell it himself. I encouraged him to pull his credit from all 3 bureaus to see where he stood with this loan. You think he did any of this???? Or explored ANY solutions at all? NOPE. I guess the Lord was supposed to work out on the details on this too. Heck, she'd left some really nice furniture and a top-of-the-line stainless steel frig in his house after they broke up. He thought he was respecting me by moving all her stuff several months ago when I learned of all this. I appreciated that completely, but suggested that he might hold on to it to see how she was gonna handle the truck payments. I know he thinks I'm a total harda**, but my logic is that the furniture and frig were worth a couple of payments, at least. But he and his friend loaded it all up on his truck and took it to her mom's house. Stuff that should've been her responsibility to come and pick up!!!
But I digress...
Well, fast forward to last week (10/30). The repo company calls to inform him that the truck has been taken. That was early Oct., but I find out about the repo well after the fact. No doubt he didn't want to tell me for worrying about how I'd react, but I'm sorry, I lost a lot of respect for his deciding to hide it and his failure to assume any proactive responsibility concerning the loan! He tried to calm me saying that the loan company said they'd work with him as best they could, "but it will be on my credit." Um, DUH! Of course it'll be on your credit! And here you decide to tell me about it after it's too late for us to put our heads together and work out a solution. But nooooooo, he's so busy trying to be so nice and avoid conflict at all cost that it ends up biting him in the butt. I'm sure his thing is that he didn't want to ruffle any feathers with the ex and/or her baby daddy(ies). So I guess I'm supposed to be all loving and accepting. 'Fraid not, Homie! I'm not that kinda nice. He lamented that I made him feel stupid about how he handled it. My thought is that "you should feel stupid." But I didn't say that. I just explained to him that I'm not one to sit back and pat you on the head and make you think I'm here to co-sign on your negligence with a big smile on my face!! I'm gonna let you know how I really feel. To make things worse, in one breath he says "I know it was stupid of my to co-sign...I just got suckered, that's all...I know I could have handled things different." In the next breath it was, "everything can't be controlled, this was just a situation beyond my control." "I did what I could...even though I didn't handle it the way YOU wanted me to." I asked him what exactly did he do to try to avoid a repo and spare his credit, to which he responded, "well, I thought about it, but I knew I couldn't pay the loan, so I just let them repo it." Sigh!!!! Hmmm, imagine if all our problems would resolve themselves just because we thought about them?!?! And here was the icing on the cake. He concludes, "that's ok, though, God's gonna deal with her. You don't do God's children wrong and get away with it?" To which I gently said that she probably didn't do it out of malice. I mean, times are hard, she probably just couldn't pay the loan. I went on to say that maybe God is going to "get" both of you. The person that's truly been wronged is the lender. Even though you guys had an understanding that she would make the payments, the loan was as much yours and it was hers. That's what the heck you agree to when you cosign!!!!
Here we are trying to strategize to buy a new house together so we don't have to start our marriage off in the house he and his ex-wife consummated (totally different woman), and it's like he can't see the importance of dotting i's and crossing t's to get/stay in good financial health. And that's not to make it sound like everything is all about mine and his life together. I feel sorry for the kid. If Daddy's credit is all jacked up, it's gonna eventually cost the kid. The kid's mom pays NO regular child support and she's been remarried for several years. (My fiance is the custodial parent.) Here again, Pastor Fiance doesn't see the need to require this of her...yet he's living paycheck to paycheck. But I'm sure requiring consistent support from her might ruffle HER feathers and imply that God wouldn't or couldn't supply for him and his son. Heaven forbid she or anybody else ever got the impression that he didn't have it all under control.
Funny thing is, we recently started premarital counseling with a Christian counselor and one of the main things that came out in his personality/temperament profiles is that he has a compulsive need to appear competent, even when he's not. It was good to see that on paper...I was starting to think I was just imagining stuff...or it was just me trying to control everything (control is my main temperament challenge). But I see now that we have veeeeeeery different views about what can and cannot be controlled and how God operates on our behalf. It's like he thinks I'm mad/being hard on him for his decision to cosign on a loan with a woman that he should've known was using him. Wrong! All that stuff happened before "us." Nothing I could do about that. My anger is because of constant procrastination...his failure to take control of the situation so as to exhaust every possible solution to avoid or minimize the negative impact! And he wants us to have kids together???  Hmphf!!!
Sorry to be so long-winded. So again, my question is how do I know whether to keep looking past these issues as "honest mistakes" or to conclude that I'm dealing with a man with a generalized lack of good judgment?? I'm sorry, being a Christian does NOT mean people have the license to walk all over us and we not defend and protect ourselves. I want to be able to submit, and I firmly believe that the man should be the head, but from what I've seen so far, I'm realizing that I simply wouldn't be comfortable giving this man the "driver's seat" to my life.
< Message edited by helovesme72 -- 11/3/2008 10:48:12 PM >
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RE: "Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor ... - 11/3/2008 11:08:11 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2991
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
I'm realizing that I simply wouldn't be comfortable giving this man the "driver's seat" to my life.
I believe you have answered your own question.
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RE: "Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor ... - 11/3/2008 11:10:51 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1089
Joined: 4/29/2005
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quote:
how do I know whether to keep looking past these issues as "honest mistakes" or to conclude that I'm dealing with a man with a generalized lack of good judgment??
You've gone to a lot of effort to show us his 'general lack of good judgment' -- but I don't see it that way. I see that each person has a great many strengths and a great many flaws. You've gotten to know him well enough to put your finger on 2 of his very real flaws -- the desire not to ruffle feathers, and the desire to appear competent. Many people suffer from and through these flaws. Other people suffer from and through other flaws.
In the case of your Pastor Fiance It's not 'general lack of good judgment' and it's unfair (and deeply disrespectful) to characterize it that way. Most simply, it's 2 very distinct and clear personality tenancies. They are very real... They are likely to be permanent (although they might be moderated over time and in a healthy key-relationship)... And they are going to effect your life together (if you should choose to try to build a life together).
My answer is, "It's all about grace." If you can know him, know his flaws, and know that those flaws are going to introduce some misery into your life -- If you can know that, still love him, plan to stick with him, graciously living with the aftermath of his flawed choices... marry him. That's grace: unmerited favour... neither earned nor deserved, abiding for all time. If you can tie up those number of future-days that will be difficult because of his flaws with a pretty party bow and give them to him, hard-feelings-free, as a wedding gift... marry him.
(Yes, you can hope for fewer difficult days, and you can encourage and help him to get a little better over the years... but hoping and helping is as far as that goes.)
If you can't approach the future with eyes open, grace at-hand and fundamental respect for who he is (flaws and all) ... let go of this one and try to find someone who's flaws are different and more manageable for you.
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RE: "Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor ... - 11/3/2008 11:29:09 PM
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helovesme72
Posts: 7
Joined: 11/3/2008
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quote:
If you can tie up those number of future-days that will be difficult because of his flaws with a pretty party bow and give them to him, hard-feelings-free, as a wedding gift... marry him.
thanks pbaribeault for your candid response. You made some wonderful points and it's glad to see this from a different perspective. Of course, now I feel really rotten. 
Truth is, I wish I could just accept these as flaws and have confidence that we can work past them. But aren't husband and wife supposed to work together? He's shown me in so many circumstances that my input and suggestion simply do not help him move towards solutions to problems and challenges. I wish to God I was as patient as he is. Like for instance, I'm kinda fickle sometimes and sometimes not punctual but it never seems to ruffle him. But! I can say that that I bend over backwards to make sure that I don't go changing my mind on things I've committed to for him. I may be late for church when it's just me, but if we're going together or I have to serve alongside him in music, then I'll go with mismatched shoes so long as I'm on time. Yeah, I should do it just as much for "me," but hte truth is, I bend over backwards much further when it's something that will affect him. I'd like that same kind of respect and extra effort from him where my I'm concerned. But if it's calls for too much thought, creativity or challenge, I can forget it.
The extent to which his procrastination and "blind faith" stresses me is not healthy. When you're all balled up in knots all the time because the one you love won't communicate or work together with you, it's hard to have peace.
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RE: "Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor ... - 11/4/2008 8:27:14 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1861
Joined: 5/23/2006
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quote:
I believe you have answered your own question.
If she didn't Lord help them both.
I can't begin to imagine marrying someone with as many misgivings as you listed about this guy...nor can I imagine having someone so irresponsible as a pastor.
You really need to take a hard look at yourself and why YOU are allowing this person in your life.
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RE: "Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor ... - 11/4/2008 8:36:19 AM
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seagullplayer
Posts: 118
Joined: 9/18/2007
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That sure was a lot of drama over a truck loan.
In the ministry you get walked on, are you sure you are ready for that?
_____________________________
The world has only one problem, sin.
There is only one solution, Jesus.
THE WAY.
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RE: "Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor ... - 11/4/2008 8:53:03 AM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1089
Joined: 4/29/2005
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quote:
I wish I could just accept these as flaws and have confidence that we can work past them. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying accept the flaws and plan on a life that includes them and their consequences. You can't work together on his personal issues. He can work on them, if he chooses, and you can encourage that choice and that process... specific input and suggestions from you (especially if they are unsolicited) are not going to change how he makes any individual decision. A lifestlye choice (on your part) to be empowering (through respect) and supportive has the potential to lead him to wisdom.
Whether it is the wisdom for him to seek your advice, the wisdom to hand over certain areas of life to your 'driver's seat', or the wisdom to actually learn to think these things through better for himself. But that's a long term plan that is not guaranteed any success.
In fact, with the hard-nosed way that you approach his choices, his ability to make them well, and their effect in your life... there is a much greater chance that he will never feel safe enough about being accepted and respected (flaws and all) so he will never be brave enough to open that box in his heart and begin to tinker with his flaws at all. (Unless you change how you act and feel about these flaws and their effects on your combined life.) Forgive me if this is inaccurate, but in typing you sound like you can be sharp in these discussions, and when it sounds to him like you are saying, "Any idiot knows better than this... try to do it this way, that is obviously smarter." All he hears is 'My fiancee thinks I'm an idiot.' Which is such a painful thing that he can't even begin to hear your advice, and his situational judgment is even further impaired by the way he is reeling in deep pain and self doubt.
(If he has a deep need to be seen as competent, as his wife you must be able to meet that need moderately well. He must believe that no matter what anybody else thinks, his wife believes that he is competent. This will calm that need significantly in the rest of his life. If he is constantly doubting whether you think that, and you know him best, he will be crippled in all his dealings and relationships. Good wives don't let that happen.)
quote:
When you're all balled up in knots all the time because the one you love won't communicate or work together with you, it's hard to have peace.
You stressing about his procrastination is not healthy, as you say. In marriage, you say one of three things, depending on who the decision effects most --
(1) "This effects me as well as you, and although I respect your intent, I don't agree completely with this strategy of waiting. I have the following plan that compromises our two styles... Can we talk about that?" (Then you work to a plan you can both live with, with specific if-then's and timings, and decide who will do what.)
(2) "This decision primarily effects me, and as such I believe that I should be primary decision maker here. Can you put this area of our life into my hands and trust me to take care of it? Will you pray for me through the process?"
(3) "This decision effects me, but not deeply. I care and I hope you make a good decision. I want you to know that I have some experience that I can share, if you want to hear it. I also want you to know that things like this make me nervous, based on what's happened before, but, whatever you decide, even if it turns out not to be ideal, I trust you."
In none of these do you stress in an unhealthy way. You either take care of it (low stress) or let it go (low stress). It's minding things that you aren't in charge of that leads to stress. The only part that requires 2-way communication is the first one where the impact is felt equally... which is very few situations. If he resists communication, you might want to build your skills at asking leading questions that only require yes or no answers, and forming a conclusion based on that. Also you might want to ask your premarriage counselor to enhance both of your skills in this area of negotiation a joint decision in an area of disagreement.
Remember that whether or not you stress about his decisions is your choice, and not his responsibility.
(Basically this post adds up to: less talking, less 'working together'... more trust, respect and acceptance of future mistakes.)
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RE: "Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor ... - 11/5/2008 2:36:46 PM
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speak_n_it
Posts: 13
Joined: 10/31/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Pastor Fiance informed me 3 or 4 months ago about the loan...not because he's that open with me (he's soooo very NOT - I have to probe for EVERY ounce of critical information),
With all that you have posted and reading this, I think you have answered your own question also. If these patterns are this out of control before marriage, it will only get worse and BIGGER after marriage as you have to make other decisions concerning your lives together.
I think the Lord allows red flags to let us see that at times our emotions are involved but our heart and spirit are telling us otherwise.
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RE: "Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor ... - 11/5/2008 4:41:24 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
Status: offline
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Uh....I think we have more going on here then flaws. With respect and concern for helovesme, back off. Back waaay off. It won't get better and if you try to 'fix' him? , you will be resented. I say this gently, but earnestly, you appear to be quite fed up with the whole thing.....that is what I think after reading your post. Please, just put some time and space between the two of you. Later on, you will be glad you did. I hardly ever write in the relationship threads, but sometimes I read them.
Please, just give yourself a break from this guy and see how you feel.
Probably relieved. It is not a sin to break it off. Personally, I sure would.
I have a little experience with this type of person. You can't change 'em.
Yes, God can. But this kind of person usually does not see what they do wrong. And the one 'attached' to them just gets more and more resentful.
Strong faith is better lived than talked about. I pray you at least take a break from this, ........ mess. Sincerely.
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RE: "Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor ... - 11/6/2008 8:32:54 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1861
Joined: 5/23/2006
Status: offline
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You know it really bugs me that the op cannot see this man is unfit for the Pastoral care of a church. The Bible is clear about qualifications for a leader. If he cannot manage his own household how in the world can he manage the house of God, esp. the business aspect?????
To the op-- Can you not see there are much deeper problems here- SPIRITUAL problems, rather than just a loan disagreement?
You don't need toxic relationships with anyone much less someone who holds the title of "pastor".....imo that man needs serious intervention from the Church on what the proper conduct of a Pastor truly is.
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RE: "Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor ... - 11/6/2008 6:22:02 PM
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jn1010lf
Posts: 349
Joined: 4/20/2005
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Hello helovesme72
Honey, I think this guy lacks not only good judgment but I wonder if his elevator goes all the way to the top. Leave.
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RE: "Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor ... - 11/6/2008 7:34:33 PM
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tomhillbilly
Posts: 231
Joined: 3/18/2008
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hello helovesme72
i gotta agree with most other people here. your analyses of this situation seems right on to me. the idea of marrying someone that you know going in needs to change prolly isnt a good idea for you. having to spend so much of your life trying to change or being a watch-dog over another person is just way to much work. tom
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RE: "Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor ... - 11/8/2008 4:38:19 PM
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helovesme72
Posts: 7
Joined: 11/3/2008
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Thanks Guys. I appreciate all of your feedback. Even before coming back to this post today, I'd decided that it's time to step away from this relationship. I've given it all that I have, and it's clear that we're soooo not compatible.
pbaribeault, again, you're much appreciated for your candor and sound counsel. You gave me soooo much to think about and search my heart on. And I do realize that my hard-nosed approach to things doesn't help at all. To the comment:
quote:
but, whatever you decide, even if it turns out not to be ideal, I trust you."
...that speaks volumes!! And further confirms why we should not be together. Truth is, I DON'T trust the decisions he makes. To run the risk of going from happily single to miserably married (because my husband habitually makes decisions/indecisions that put us in the poor house or wifey having to do everything) is just too much for me. I've just learned a hard lesson. Red flags popped up early in the game and I ignored them. At the end of the day, our lifestyles and ideologies are just too different - in more areas than I can name here.
Oh, and about the counselor? His advice/suggestion to me is that my fiance's "judgment" on things is not very likely to change at all.
buckifn said:
quote:
You know it really bugs me that the op cannot see this man is unfit for the Pastoral care of a church.
Actually, I DO see that now. And it's part of the reason for my exodus! I know, I know...I should never have ignored even the "early" signs, but I did. See, he preaches in a VERY rural area. Small town churches are often (not always) less discriminating in who they allow to pastor their flocks. Dear Lord, I know some of the pastors down there whose lifestyles makes my fiance's look like the grandest of heavenly wisdom. I kid you not. I mean, the bishops in their denomination ordain almost anybody without so much as a modicum of genuine assessment about how their preachers are living. It's really quite sad.
Thanks again, everybody.
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RE: "Honest mistakes" or a lifestyle of poor ... - 11/10/2008 12:55:34 PM
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macokjc
Posts: 289
Joined: 2/24/2008
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It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, and I will be praying for you as you go through this difficult time.
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