|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
A New kind of Christianity - 2/6/2010 10:18:35 PM
|
|
|
Gloryandgrace
Posts: 783
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
|
Well Brian Maclaren has been at it again. I remember dealing with this issue (along with the moderators) a couple of years ago. I said over and over that Maclaren was a heretic and his teaching were liberal garbage. So you all know or remember my opinion.
So. here it is http://browseinside.harpercollins.com/index.aspx?isbn13=9780061853982
Brians new book. The above link takes you to harpercollins and you can get portions of his chapters. \
Pages 60-90 really get down to business and you find out just what Brian believes. This time no more dancing around the issues. Hes made himself an emergent systematic theology...if you can call it that.
So, lets discuss the book, the theology, the conclusions Brian is making and the "hail Mary pass"
from experimental orthodoxy to a generous liberal theology.
Is Brian offering us a "new kind of Christianity"? or is he offering something that is much older and has been offered many times before?
John<--------needs to be nice.....and so do the rest of you about this controversial man and his teaching.
I wanted to edit.......I am open to various theological bents. That means its ok on my thread to hold an Arminian or Calvinistic view and critique Brians book and theology from that standpoint. Or to approve Brians book and theology if your are Liberal or Emergent. Classifying oneself and your theological position is helpful.
Brian has the vines almost covering his cross, for others the blood is still on theirs.
< Message edited by Gloryandgrace -- 2/6/2010 10:32:06 PM >
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/6/2010 11:14:37 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5588
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
|
What is there to discuss? This is nothing more than post-modern, relativistic mumbo-jumbo dressed up to look like reasonable justification for evangelizing Gen X. Confronting emergent "theology" is harder than nailing Jello to a wall...
What I really wonder is whether the man is knowingly deceiving others or is truly deceived himself. Only God knows the heart.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/7/2010 1:56:42 PM
|
|
|
jazzact13
Posts: 732
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
I looked through some of that. What is this Theos he goes on about at one point?
_____________________________
The ACORN doesn't fall far from the "O"ak
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/7/2010 5:43:50 PM
|
|
|
Gloryandgrace
Posts: 783
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
|
Jazzact: To Brian M the Theos God is a greco-roman god that is all lightning and thunderbolts. Its an immature look at God that doest really exist. It exists only in the minds of Platonic/greek philosophy that is intermixed with Christian literature.
This is of course what he is claiming that the orthodox Christian Church is preaching and presenting to the world....and its no wonder they dont want him. So Brian has conceived in his mind a god-nice-representation.
See Chapt 11
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/7/2010 6:51:08 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 3814
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
I haven't read it, but have studied enough of most everything out there
to know most of what's out there is synchrotism.
A "mixed religion."
Mixing two opposing views to create a hybrid religion.
NOT GOOD!
I'll just stick to studying my Scriptures.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/7/2010 6:55:12 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5588
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
|
quote:
A "mixed religion."
Mixing two opposing views to create a hybrid religion. How would you describe or label the "two opposing views" that mix into Emergent church doctrine?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/8/2010 9:26:48 AM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1648
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
God is the same "YESTERDAY, TODAY, and FOREVER."
Guess Mr Maclaren and his Emergent pals missed that Scripture
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/8/2010 11:38:56 AM
|
|
|
jazzact13
Posts: 732
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Jazzact: To Brian M the Theos God is a greco-roman god that is all lightning and thunderbolts. Its an immature look at God that doest really exist. It exists only in the minds of Platonic/greek philosophy that is intermixed with Christian literature.
Thanks. Is he saying that that is the God of the OT? If so, what is he saying about when the OT was written?
_____________________________
The ACORN doesn't fall far from the "O"ak
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/9/2010 9:53:05 AM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1343
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
All paths lead to God just as all noise leads to music. NOT!
I spent some time this morning investigating BM and the emergent church. It seems to function pretty much as a Whine Cellar: you go there with some "sour grapes" about the church not doing things the way you think it should or unpleasant dogma (such as eternal damnation or dying to self) and you "emerge" with an empty bottle labeled vintage Christianity. Nothing needs to be in the bottle because vanity is the spirit; one's own heady ideas acts like the miracle at Canna, turning watered down doctrine into potent but oh so giddy apostasy. This is not a miracle but the magic of The Enemy.
The syncretism BM speaks about is a misnomer: it is sophistry, a beguiling mix of half truths to charm Sunday Christians and the malcontents. Whatever stronghold is left in a person is ordained a bastion of the new realm.
BM and this movement does not like the word "movement": they call it "conversation." And that is the better name for it, for they have opened up a dialogue with Screwtape.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/9/2010 11:04:20 AM
|
|
|
sue244
Posts: 860
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
|
Didymus mark this day down because I finally agree with you on something.
I'm going to have to remember your whine celler metaphore because that is so true about the emergent church.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/9/2010 1:08:23 PM
|
|
|
jazzact13
Posts: 732
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
The emergent church as a "whine cellar"!! Great!!!  A very simple and profound summation!
_____________________________
The ACORN doesn't fall far from the "O"ak
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/9/2010 2:41:55 PM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1343
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
sue244, since reading your post I have suffered three and a half major heart-attacks (although, now that I think of it, that half of one may have the green chili stew I had for lunch, merely heartburn, but I'm not going to let sue know that).
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/10/2010 9:37:15 AM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1343
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
When we make being a child of God a religion, something Jesus made a point to discourage with the Jews, we see the worldly effects. The movement to conservative views and then the backlash to liberal views, over and over. It is a societal tide that we see in all the cultures of man.
From Rationalism to Romanticism to Enlightenment to Existentialism to Spiritualism to.... And each proclaims this is the proper view of existence and how we are to be in the world.
As long as we remain entrenched in being either liberals or conservatives instead of simply and completely positioned in Christ and steeped in His word, this tide will continue to pull us this way and that and keep us adamantly divided, putting our trust in and using worldly devices such as politics to influence the waters of opinion.
It is not about being right over doctrine (and that is not saying doctrine is unimportant), it is about loving others. There will always be a "new kind of Christianity" if we make what we think grander than our actions. Make "the mistake" of putting love above doctrine and sound doctrine will follow. Love is having the eyes to see.
When Jesus was asked what one had to do to have eternal life there were any number of ways He could have answered. If someone asked you, you would properly say, "Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, repent of your sins, and so forth. But what was Jesus' response. Did He say, "Believe on me"? No. Jesus said "Love your neighbor."
And what did Paul say in the oft-quoted Romans13? He gave the One Rule for Christians in the world: "Love your neighbor, for love does no harm."
To be a child of God demands discipline and devotion--but to what? A system of belief (doctrinal tradition) or the movement of spirit in, through, and by Christ, "in whom we are to live and move and have our being"? Jesus gave us a spirit of action. We are to act our way into right thinking, not think our way into right action. How is that possible? Through a total surrender to and complete trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
As a religion, being a system of belief, we keep our faith as a function primarily of the mind but it is in the heart that we come into a direct relationship with God. The heart is the spirit infused in us when we are re-born in Christ, and that spirit is love.
< Message edited by didymus101 -- 2/10/2010 9:46:32 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/10/2010 10:24:23 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5588
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
|
quote:
As a religion, being a system of belief, we keep our faith as a function primarily of the mind but it is in the heart that we come into a direct relationship with God. The heart is the spirit infused in us when we are re-born in Christ, and that spirit is love. That's nice intellectualism, didymus, but it does not address the simple truth that there is no meaningful orthopraxy without meaningful orthodoxy to underlie it. The Love of Christ is the basis for all real Christian behavior, but if one makes Christ to be whatever one wishes, then His Love becomes just as ill-defined as emergent pseudo-doctrine!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/10/2010 11:07:58 AM
|
|
|
sue244
Posts: 860
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
|
And we are back to normal.
this "new" kind of Christianity is neither new nor Christian.
The issue has always been those who are holding to truth and those who want to soften truth (which really destorys it) so that the world will be more accepting.
These idea's that McLaren are offering are the same ideas that have been dealt with time and time again in church history. The division, that you seem to be so opposed to, is over truth. Those who stand for it will always be divivded against those who want to destory truth.
My pastor has been working his way through John on Sunday morning and I have lost track of how many times it says in the text that the Jews were divided over Jesus.
To be a Christian is to be divivded from the World. We are told quite clearly that the World will hate us because it first hated Jesus.
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/10/2010 12:51:45 PM
|
|
|
trey182
Posts: 365
Joined: 1/6/2010
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
|
I am wondering if any of you are without sin? The Bible says:
1 John 3:1-10
1How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
I do not know much about the "emergent church", i have never really known about it until recently. But i do know that if we still sin, if we still have planks in our eye, then we have not yet come to see and understand the Truth in it's entirety. If all of you who are bashing the emergent church do not sin anymore, then by all means, continue, it would not be my place to tell you to do otherwise. But if you still struggle with sin, then you may not be in complete understanding, and this discussion becomes unfruitful. I just wanted to point this out so we do not falsely judge others and become unfruitful.
But again, if you do not struggle with sin any longer, then by all means, continue.
_____________________________
God Is Love.
1 John 4:8 -- John 15:13 -- Matthew 22:36-40 -- Galatians 5:22
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/10/2010 2:00:15 PM
|
|
|
jazzact13
Posts: 732
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
It is not about being right over doctrine (and that is not saying doctrine is unimportant), it is about loving others. There will always be a "new kind of Christianity" if we make what we think grander than our actions. Make "the mistake" of putting love above doctrine and sound doctrine will follow. Love is having the eyes to see.
How can you even know what it means to love others if your beliefs are wrong?
The problem with McLaren and emergents isn't that they claim to love others, but where what they call love leads to. They do violence to the Bible in order to make it's message measure down to what they consider love--hell is unloving, so they have to explain away what the Bible says about it; the Bible says very harsh things about those who practice homosexuality, so they jump through all kinds of hoops in order to make the Bible not say those things; the Bible is extremely exclusionary, so they adopt words like "inclusive" and "holistic" to make everyone feel welcomed.
There are people whose ideas of 'love' are little better than hatred.
There are parents who have bought into the fiction that spanking and correcting their children is somehow unloving and restricting, so in their desire to 'love' they do not do those things, and so their children suffer. Rather than learning the lessons early in life, when the consequence were rather light, they learn them later, when the results are heavier and harsher, and those who administer the lessons are less gentle.
I've no wish to downplay the role of love, but I would rather be instructed by someone who is right. Love can be used as a manipulation, unless it is love in a true sense.
_____________________________
The ACORN doesn't fall far from the "O"ak
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/10/2010 2:08:01 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5588
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
|
quote:
How can you even know what it means to love others if your beliefs are wrong? Exactly what I meant by "there is no meaningful orthopraxy without meaningful orthodoxy to underlie it."
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/10/2010 4:51:16 PM
|
|
|
jazzact13
Posts: 732
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Exactly what I meant by "there is no meaningful orthopraxy without meaningful orthodoxy to underlie it."
Very well put.
_____________________________
The ACORN doesn't fall far from the "O"ak
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/10/2010 5:50:50 PM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1343
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
Drmark, again, please re-read: where did I say sound doctrine was either unimportant or unnecessary? Quoting myself, 'It is not about being right over doctrine (and that is not saying doctrine is unimportant), it is about loving others."
A small effort to find the spirit of what I said would instantly reveal I am speaking about emphasis and not an either/or between love and doctrine. When we stress we are "right" about our doctrine over the love we are to show all the world, according to Christ, we fall into legalism and into bitter divisions that last for centuries.
Using the example of the Good Samaritan parable, Jesus could have emphasized the sound doctrine of believing in Him as Lord and Savior or the necessity of confession and the forgiveness of sins. Was He in error because he chose to emphasize instead love of neighbor as what we are to do to have eternal life? What, no mention of justification or sanctification? Is He saying all we need is love? And he never even hints at hell fire and damnation; must be one of those "everything is beautiful" types.
Taking a post where someone is emphasing one facet of faith, as Jesus was in that parable, does not mean they are against the rest of the Bible or find other doctrine unimportant. If the story of the Good Samaritan had never made it to the Bible and I posted, I know how a few would instantly respond.
We get our great divisions from an over-emphasis of orthodoxy over orthopraxy. Love is the animation of truth.
God is love. Love is not possible without God for, as it is abundantly clear in scripture, "the person that dwells in love, dwells in God and God in that person. It is not possible for love, if it is love, to become "just as ill-defined as emergent pseudo-doctrine!" as you claim.
There appears to be a great deal of misunderstanding or lack of study on the nature of love, as clearly defined and characterized in the word.
Sue, the ones who stand in truth, rest in Christ; they are dressed in that full armor of His righteousness. I am not opposed, as you claim that I am, to dividing soul from spirit or lies from truth. But I am opposed to acrimony and fighting amongst Christians divided over doctrine. I am opposed to the automatic judgments made against the heart of others based on what sect they belong to or leaning they may have (conservative or liberal).
When we stand in truth, we are not divided against the lost or the backsliders: we are there in prayer, love, and waiting arms for the benefit of their souls. We boldly state what is truth as we have come to see it through our study and the grace of the Holy Spirit; we are not against lies for they are shadows and without substance. Christ is the light that dispels these shadows and not our feelings about.
< Message edited by didymus101 -- 2/10/2010 6:04:48 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/10/2010 6:08:01 PM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1343
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
And all the little barbs some of you feel are necessary when communicating a response really does not act as a demonstration of what true Christianity is to those poor misguided members of the emergent church.
I know, if I can't take the abuse I should not be in a Christian forum.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/10/2010 6:58:26 PM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1343
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
drmark, I have journaling about the good samaritan for a few days and overlooked bringing to your attention some troubling aspects with this story, which pertain directly to the orthodoxy/orthopraxy question you brought up.
Jesus used a Samaritan partly to shame the Jews for their prejudice and way of dealing with those people. (A good thing to keep in mind when we have something to say about others who hold different or opposing views to ours.) Yet on the other hand it is documented that the Samaritans did not follow the law, married nonjewish women, and worshipped false gods. And that brings us to this question:
How sound was the doctrine, orthodoxy, of the common Samaritan? Was "his love as ill-defined as emergent pseudo-doctrine"?
Are we to somehow assume this was an uncommon Samaritan?
Why would Jesus use as the exemplar of love someone known not to keep the law? Are we to take his use of a Samaritan a non-issue, placed in the story only to accent the point that your neighbor are even those you despise and not anything more? Or is love of neighbor of a greater order than we usually accept?
Yet those of extremely sound doctrine are used in contrast: is this simply saying faith without works is dead or is it saying more? Such as pointing out that those who overemphasize doctrine overlook love; the mind hides it from them.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/11/2010 8:22:12 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 5588
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
|
quote:
...a demonstration of what true Christianity is to those poor misguided members of the emergent church. If you would have stated your position with clarity in the first place, you probably would not have been misunderstood. I apologize for misunderstanding your position from your original post.
quote:
Why would Jesus use as the exemplar of love someone known not to keep the law? Are we to take his use of a Samaritan a non-issue, placed in the story only to accent the point that your neighbor are even those you despise and not anything more? Or is love of neighbor of a greater order than we usually accept? Given the context of the parable coming right after affirmation of the Two Greatest Commands, I conclude that the Samaritan was displaying his loving orthopraxy from a heart controlled by genuine orthodoxy. I personally don't see any connection with keeping the Law involved here at all.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: A New kind of Christianity - 2/11/2010 10:47:02 AM
|
|
|
didymus101
Posts: 1343
Joined: 6/13/2009
Status: offline
|
drmark, thank you for the apology, even if it was a little left-handed.
The Two Greatest Commands were not affrimed by the Samaritan but by the lawyer who was well-versed in orthodoxy, a person who could not even bring himself to say the word Samaritan when asked at the conclusion which of the three was a neighbor to the injured man, saying only, "The one who had mercy on him." His rich knowledge of doctrine was a high wall that blocked the view of his neighbor.
The lawyer's profound knowledge of orthodoxy availed him nothing. Making love dependent on orthodoxy either as its source or as its guide is misplacing the spirit. The love is of God and is poured into us through the Holy Spirit.
If it were the cause and effect mechanism you are suggesting, i.e. sound doctrine leads to "well-defined" love, The parable would a) not have been necessary (for the lawyer had more than enough sound orthodoxy) or b) ended when the priest came down the road (for the priest, and the Levitt, had plenty of sound orthodoxy, which was why they were used in the first place).
All the misguided characters in that parable are those who diligently study and know the scriptures. Search the scriptures but where you find Christ is in the love of your neighbor.
There is not, as you claim, anything to suggest the Samaritan was "displaying his loving orthopraxy from a heart controlled by genuine orthodoxy." Such a claim, in my eyes, is apostasy. His heart was moved by the power of the Holy Spirit and nothing else.
Your view on the power and control afforded by mere sound doctrine takes Christ out of the picture. And it also answers a number of questions I had on your views in other threads.
We do not take our stand in the world on sound doctrine; sound doctrine leads us to be wholly positioned in Christ and completely open to the movement of spirit. Love is not the manifestation of sound doctrine; love is the whole purpose of The Word. Remember, love never fails but sound doctrine has no such guarantee.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
