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Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/24/2008 7:19:34 PM
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WormHeart
Posts: 291
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From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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Really rare photage.
A 'golden orb weaver' has caught a bird and is feasting. Truly an amazing - and somewhat creepy - creature
Spider eats bird
The animal kingdom is a treasure trove of the bizarre and incredible.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/24/2008 8:31:42 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2022
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For all the high housing prices and generally mediocre weather, it's things like this that make me glad I live in New England. I am at the top of the food chain; except for the occasional bear (which are easy to avoid), nothing will even try to eat me. Snow isn't going to hide behind a rock and bite me when I'm walking in the woods. Snow isn't going to crawl into my boot or my bed sheets just waiting for me to unwittingly stick my foot into its mouth. Snow isn't going to make a nest in my tool shed. Snow can't bite through my shoe. Snow can't swallow me whole.
Snow just sits there, patiently waiting for me and my shovel. As much as I hate snow, I hate many other things much more.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/26/2008 2:36:36 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 754
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Cool design! Pictures like this aptly demonstrate how everything was designed by a benevolent creator . . .
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/26/2008 3:23:09 PM
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Veritas
Posts: 527
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
Cool design! Pictures like this aptly demonstrate how everything was designed by a benevolent creator . . .
I'm sure the big ole spider would agree with you. Not so sure the cute lil birdie would agree...
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/27/2008 5:32:43 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7617
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Cool design! Pictures like this aptly demonstrate how everything was designed by a benevolent creator . . .
From ID prespective benevolence isn't a neccesity; from the Christian perspective, while God is both good and loving, He isn't the Mr. Rogers some expect of Him.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/28/2008 1:14:05 PM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
I'm sure the big ole spider would agree with you. Not so sure the cute lil birdie would agree...
Exactly. God knows even the falling of a sparrow, but apparently he isn't too concerned about the ickiness of it's falling even though it is an inherent component of his own design.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
From ID prespective benevolence isn't a neccesity;
It is if one assumes [like most IDers do] that the designer is the Creator of the bible. And that same Creator is love, according to 1John 4:8 & 16.
quote:
from the Christian perspective, while God is both good and loving, He isn't the Mr. Rogers some expect of Him.
That's putting it very mildly.
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/29/2008 2:34:42 AM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
I'm sure the big ole spider would agree with you. Not so sure the cute lil birdie would agree...
Exactly. God knows even the falling of a sparrow, but apparently he isn't too concerned about the ickiness of it's falling even though it is an inherent component of his own design.
Spiders inject their victims with a toxin that causes much pain, paralyzes, and pre-digests the victims so the spider can suck out the insides of the victim. You said the picture "aptly demonstrate how everything was designed by a benevolent creator". How does this show any sort of benevolence?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
From ID prespective benevolence isn't a neccesity;
It is if one assumes [like most IDers do] that the designer is the Creator of the bible. And that same Creator is love, according to 1John 4:8 & 16.
Everyone knows that the Designer is none other than God, but ID proponents do not like to admit what everyone know -- that the Designer is God. They like to be coy and pretend that the Designer isn't necessarily God. I'm not fooled and obviously neither are you.
quote:
quote:
from the Christian perspective, while God is both good and loving, He isn't the Mr. Rogers some expect of Him.
That's putting it very mildly.
Really! Having a creature poison, paralyze, liquify, and suck out the insides of a bird is not a Mr-Rogers kind of thing. It doesn't show God's good-and-loving side. I don't see anything benevolent about what's shown in that picture. You and I must have a very different idea of what benevolent means.
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/30/2008 3:41:27 PM
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atruefaith
Posts: 320
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quote:
The animal kingdom is a treasure trove of the bizarre and incredible.
Fascinating, but it looks staged.
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A series of short stories depicting the Christian faith....
www.atruefaith.com
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/30/2008 5:09:43 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7617
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Exactly. God knows even the falling of a sparrow, but apparently he isn't too concerned about the ickiness of it's falling even though it is an inherent component of his own design.
Well it's icky to you because you don't like sparrows.
quote:
It is if one assumes [like most IDers do] that the designer is the Creator of the bible. And that same Creator is love, according to 1John 4:8 & 16.
ID doesn't assume that; IDers of course are free to have whatever theological beliefs they desires.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/30/2008 5:13:33 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7617
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Spiders inject their victims with a toxin that causes much pain, paralyzes, and pre-digests the victims so the spider can suck out the insides of the victim. You said the picture "aptly demonstrate how everything was designed by a benevolent creator". How does this show any sort of benevolence?
How do you know how much pain they feel?
quote:
Everyone knows that the Designer is none other than God, but ID proponents do not like to admit what everyone know -- that the Designer is God. They like to be coy and pretend that the Designer isn't necessarily God. I'm not fooled and obviously neither are you.
You figured out who the designer is? Cool.
quote:
Really! Having a creature poison, paralyze, liquify, and suck out the insides of a bird is not a Mr-Rogers kind of thing. It doesn't show God's good-and-loving side. I don't see anything benevolent about what's shown in that picture. You and I must have a very different idea of what benevolent means.
What part of "He isn't the Mr. Rogers some expect of Him" don't you understand?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/30/2008 10:45:09 PM
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Veritas
Posts: 527
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Spiders inject their victims with a toxin that causes much pain, paralyzes, and pre-digests the victims so the spider can suck out the insides of the victim. You said the picture "aptly demonstrate how everything was designed by a benevolent creator". How does this show any sort of benevolence?
How do you know how much pain they feel?
You're nit-picking to avoid the question. If we omit the reference to pain, can you answer the question? The question was "How does this show any sort of benevolence?"
quote:
quote:
Everyone knows that the Designer is none other than God, but ID proponents do not like to admit what everyone know -- that the Designer is God. They like to be coy and pretend that the Designer isn't necessarily God. I'm not fooled and obviously neither are you.
You figured out who the designer is? Cool.
At least you're not being coy and pretending that ID is about an unknown designer. I appreciate that. I'm not the only one who figured it out. ID creationist proponents and opponents all know that the Designer is God.
quote:
quote:
Really! Having a creature poison, paralyze, liquify, and suck out the insides of a bird is not a Mr-Rogers kind of thing. It doesn't show God's good-and-loving side. I don't see anything benevolent about what's shown in that picture. You and I must have a very different idea of what benevolent means.
What part of "He isn't the Mr. Rogers some expect of Him" don't you understand?
I understand "He isn't the Mr. Rogers some expect of Him". What I don't understand is how this shows any sort of benevolence.
It's a simple question. How does this show any sort of benevolence? If you have an answer, let's hear it.
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/30/2008 11:34:55 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7617
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
You're nit-picking to avoid the question. If we omit the reference to pain, can you answer the question? The question was "How does this show any sort of benevolence?"
Well, it apparently shows a lot of benevolence towards hungry spiders.
At least you're not being coy and pretending that ID is about an unknown designer. I appreciate that. I'm not the only one who figured it out. ID creationist proponents and opponents all know that the Designer is God.
Wow Veritas, you figured out there are Christians on this sight; how many years did that take you?
quote:
I understand "He isn't the Mr. Rogers some expect of Him". What I don't understand is how this shows any sort of benevolence.
It's a simple question. How does this show any sort of benevolence? If you have an answer, let's hear it.
As I said, feeding a hungry animal is certainly more benevolent than letting it starve, just as when someone feeds me a well cooked steak, it is an act of great benevolence.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/31/2008 8:47:18 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 754
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
You said the picture "aptly demonstrate how everything was designed by a benevolent creator". How does this show any sort of benevolence?
I was being facetious; sorry that wasn't clear.
quote:
They like to be coy and pretend that the Designer isn't necessarily God. I'm not fooled and obviously neither are you.
Correct. They use ID as the back door for letting biblical creationism back into the classroom. So much for 21 Century education . . .
quote:
I don't see anything benevolent about what's shown in that picture. You and I must have a very different idea of what benevolent means.
I don't know if this comment was aimed at me or Jhud, but that's what I meant by, "That's putting it mildly."
< Message edited by 1dblthnk02 -- 10/31/2008 9:09:57 AM >
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/31/2008 8:55:32 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 754
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well it's icky to you because you don't like sparrows.
It's icky to me because I don't like suffering. Can you even imagine the agonizing horror of dying like that, even if you were just a birdie?
quote:
ID doesn't assume that; IDers of course are free to have whatever theological beliefs they desires.
I made that delineation already, did I not? It is expressly the Christian IDers that I had in mind.
quote:
As I said, feeding a hungry animal is certainly more benevolent than letting it starve, just as when someone feeds me a well cooked steak, it is an act of great benevolence.
And is the terrifed, bellaring bovine first injected with a toxin that causes much pain & paralysis, and pre-digests the victims so that you can suck its insides out?
< Message edited by 1dblthnk02 -- 10/31/2008 9:10:48 AM >
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/31/2008 9:07:51 AM
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1dblthnk02
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Okay, I'll give credit where credit is due: I got that "cool design!" bit from this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcrq5OOkQdk
(the link function didn't work for me)
Pay particular attention to the 45 second conclusion.
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 10/31/2008 10:07:06 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7617
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
It's icky to me because I don't like suffering. Can you even imagine the agonizing horror of dying like that, even if you were just a birdie?
Actually, there is no indication that a bird feel agony or horror, and almost certainly no more than the average chicken that makes it's way to your table.
The reality is people feel bad because it's a little birdy; if it were the spiders ordinary food, grashoppers and such, no one would give it a second thought. Your sentimentality doesn't change the fact that this is just the way the animal feeds; every animal that feeds is dependent to some degree on the death of other organisms.
quote:
And is the terrifed, bellaring bovine first injected with a toxin that causes much pain & paralysis, and pre-digests the victims so that you can suck its insides out?
Well, no, they usually spend a lifetime in a confined space being injected with steroids, having their testicles removed, shocked and prodded with electrical rods, and then hearded to their end watching their herdmates drop dead one by one until they get their turn.
Burger anyone?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 11/1/2008 6:40:34 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 754
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually, there is no indication that a bird feel agony or horror
Wrong. That is tantamount to suggesting that they are insensate. There is absolutley no scientific indication- not one- that birds, or any other animal, are insensate. In fact, there is a whole lot of behavioral studies on animals that suggest the exact opposite; they do indeed seem to feel pain, fear, and pleasure in more or less the same way that we do.
quote:
The reality is people feel bad because it's a little birdy; if it were the spiders ordinary food, grashoppers and such, no one would give it a second thought.
Not true. I have observed too many various and assundried bugs lose life & death struggles with spiders (not to mention seeing those Nat'l Geographic up-close & in-your-face documentaries) to not give it a second thought.
quote:
Your sentimentality doesn't change the fact that this is just the way the animal feeds; every animal that feeds is dependent to some degree on the death of other organisms.
Exactly. Now, say it with me: cool design! How loving and merciful the designer is to want to come up with such a capricious, predatory system . . .
quote:
Well, no, they usually spend a lifetime in a confined space being injected with steroids, having their testicles removed, shocked and prodded with electrical rods
Wrong again. Obviously you have never worked on a ranch. Fortunately, I have. The injections, dehornings, and neuterings are a one-time event that do not continue throughout their lives. For the most part, cattle lead very quiet and uneventful lives during which they are fed, watered, and protected from the ravages of parasites and other diseases.
quote:
and then hearded to their end watching their herdmates drop dead one by one until they get their turn.
But they are still unaware of being eaten, aren't they.
(edited by moderator for personal attacks and name calling)
< Message edited by Consecrated2God -- 11/4/2008 10:57:19 AM >
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 11/2/2008 2:04:48 PM
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GHitch
Posts: 271
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Spider eats bird turns into ages old argument against God from suffering/evil. How quaint, how intelligent.
You need to ask yourselves how much agony and pain Christ suffered for to provide a legal way of granting pardon for your lawlessness and insane rebellion against Him.
Answer - there is no greater pain. So Christ suffering as the God-man means he himself is not benevolent to himself?
You know nothing of benevolence or love until you come to him in surrender.
Again I suggest you benevolent and loving anti-God people read CS Lewis "the Problem of Pain" if you truly want to understand something instead of your old and useless arguments against God based on the evil/suffering thing. quote:
"Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself." -The Problem of Pain
I also suggest you sit back and reflect upon all the times you have caused others to suffer. Parents, family, friends, mates, strangers.
You might also want to think of the suffering you cause every time you eat a burger, chicken or any other living thing.
Add to Lewis' statement the fact that a deeply fallen world means suffering - automatically and you find that we are all part of the problem of pain. Suffering and death are not the end all sufferings. Eternal death is.
_____________________________
"The formation within geological time of a human body, by the laws of physics..., starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field, is as unlikely as the separation by chance of the atmosphere into its components." Kurt Godel
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 11/2/2008 2:28:57 PM
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GHitch
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As a generalized response :
Nature is full of illustrations designed to teach us things concerning the more eternal aspects of existence - justice and injustice, right and wrong, sin and consequent death, your eternal soul and it's destiny for example.
Look at the spider eats bird thing as an illustration of how Satan catches rebels in his near invisible web of lies and sucks the life out of them.
Every one of us has been caught in that web and had something of their life drained out. The more you sin, the greater the loss to yourself because you are the bird.
Yet "You are of more value than many sparrows". So different species have different values assigned them. What is the value of a spider vs a sparrow? Can you tell? No.
Like as if pain was intrinsically evil anyway. Pain itself has no moral attributes. Inflicting pain can have, but not necessarily - all depends on the reason and motive.
We kill and eat all kinds of living conscious things, so don't you just feel so loving and benevolent now? Life here is temporal and death is not the end of all.
There are millions of such illustrations and examples to be seen in nature.
Life here is short, death is inevitable, one way or an other. Death has millions of ways of taking people out of this world. Eternity is a long long time.
Eternal life is free. But there are contractual conditions to meet - repentance of selfishness and faith in Christ.
All of these evil/pain based arguments turn inevitably against the one using them. You yourself cause pain, emotional or physical.
Therefore you are part of the problem you claim or imply a loving and all powerful God should eliminate. Shall he start by eliminating you?
You see where this ends up? It ends up in the elimination and destruction of every being that has caused pain. Why? Because, you will cause more while you live -every time you eat meat, every time you judge the innocent, every time you say nasty things to your wife, every time you lie to someone, in short - every time you rebel against God through selfishness - the mother and root of all sin.
_____________________________
"The formation within geological time of a human body, by the laws of physics..., starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field, is as unlikely as the separation by chance of the atmosphere into its components." Kurt Godel
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 11/2/2008 8:17:42 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7617
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Wrong, Mr. Biologyexpert. That is tantamount to suggesting that they are insensate. There is absolutley no scientific indication- not one- that birds, or any other animal, are insensate. In fact, there is a whole lot of behavioral studies on animals that suggest the exact opposite; they do indeed seem to feel pain, fear, and pleasure in more or less the same way that we do.
That they feel pain, there is no doubt, as that is an ordinary response of the nervous system. How much pain a bird might experience as the result of a spider bite is debatable. That a bird might feel horror, or the psychological sense of dread humans know, is nonsense.
quote:
Not true. I have observed too many various and assundried bugs lose life & death struggles with spiders (not to mention seeing those Nat'l Geographic up-close & in-your-face documentaries) to not give it a second thought.
Well, I think we all know you are special in that regard.
quote:
Exactly. Now, say it with me: cool design! How loving and merciful the designer is to want to come up with such a capricious, predatory system . . .
Well I suppose in some unicorn fairy world all creatures would drink milk shakes all the time and that would be seen as good and loving, but in the real world we realize that there is conflict and life and death, and while goodness and love can be known here by humans, we do not look for it in spider webs.
quote:
Wrong again, Mr. Answerforeverything. Obviously you have never worked on a ranch. Fortunately, I have. The injections, dehornings, and neuterings are a one-time event that do not continue throughout their lives. For the most part, cattle lead very quiet and uneventful lives during which they are fed, watered, and protected from the ravages of parasites and other diseases.
Actually I spent much of my youth working with livestock of various sorts, as well as taking a number animal science classes at the university; and if one were to believe animals are as sensate as humans, you would believe that injections and neutering and a life of captivity leading to slaughter would be the very definition of horror and agony.
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But they are still unaware of being eaten, aren't they.
And that makes the experience more pleasant how?
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Run and get yourself one, sonny. You obviously can't keep up here.
I don’t think with your arguments ‘keeping up’ is nearly as important as being willing to lower oneself.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 11/2/2008 11:36:17 PM
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catfighter
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The was a freak occurence, so attributing it to design, benevolent or otherwise, is nonsense.
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 11/4/2008 8:55:02 AM
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Consecrated2God
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Please knock off the personal attacks, people.
Thanks!
Lisa Luper
Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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Bonky
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 11/4/2008 9:52:19 AM
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1dblthnk02
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(edited by moderator)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
That a bird might feel horror, or the psychological sense of dread humans know, is nonsense.
Does that matter? A bird knows dread and pain on a bird's level. Do you think that pain and fear don't register unless a human being feels them?
quote:
while goodness and love can be known here by humans, we do not look for it in spider webs.
Why not? Colorful photographs displaying the iridescent shimmer of the dew-drenched intricacies of a spider's web reflecting the morning sun is often used as examples of a designer's handiwork behind it all. If this is so, then surely the designer did intend for the spider web to reflect something about the character of the designer rather than the spinner.
quote:
and if one were to believe animals are as sensate as humans
Of course, I never said (strawmen are logical fallacies, you know). I merely countered your very real and mistaken notion that birds don't feel fear or pain.
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would believe that injections and neutering and a life of captivity leading to slaughter would be the very definition of horror and agony.
Their "life of captivity" has no alternatives. Bovine are not wild animals. They are the domesticated product of untold centuries of animal husbandry, and as such they are completely dependent on human care. They are in no more captivity than are human children in their parents' care.
As for the branding sessions and the slaughterhouse, I certainly wouldn't trade places with any of them at those moments; however, the rest of their lives are fairly tranquil and uneventful. And none of it- and I mean none of it- matches the cruelty of a birdie caught in a big, ugly spider's clutches.
quote:
And that makes the experience more pleasant how?
Uhm, stop and think for a moment: if you were to be eaten, would you rather experience it or not experience it? I know that I would much rather be killed before being put on the grill.
< Message edited by Consecrated2God -- 11/4/2008 10:46:08 AM >
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 11/4/2008 10:05:03 AM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: catfighter
The was a freak occurence, so attributing it to design, benevolent or otherwise, is nonsense.
Are you saying that "freak occurences" happen outside of divine omniscience and omnipotence? How is that even possible?
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RE: Amazing pictures - Spider eats bird - 11/4/2008 11:05:06 AM
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Consecrated2God
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
I have removed some personal attacks. If you can't find something you wrote, it was probably deleted.
If you feel that someone has personally attacked you, please click on the report link instead of disrupting the conversation further by responding to them.
Do not ignore the words in red below, as they may put your account in jeopardy.
Sincerely,
Lisa Luper
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Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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Bonky
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