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Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/10/2010 6:50:56 PM
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gralan
Posts: 2017
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
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We all come to the study of Theology with opinions and knowledge. Even if a person believes these to be thoughts about God that are not necessarily organized into a theology. Paul in Romans tells us that all humans have a knowledge of a Creator and that we are sinful. This is theological awareness. When we approach being educated in Theology, we do not start from scratch. We come with thoughts of God already, even if we are not learned in the Scriptures.
Just as with Philosophy, we come to the field of education called philosophy with pre-philosophical opinions and we can do no other. Francis Schaeffer also confronted Christians about what they bring to the table already. None of us approach learning from a vacuum. The problem becomes that some of the information we have is wrong, or we apply it in the wrong ways in the wrong areas.
In the Christian community there are things we know theologically about God because the Bible instructs us plainly about God. This does not mean that we know that the information we have is "theological". In fact, many folks think that theology is a waste of time and energy because they do not understand that any knowledge about God is "theological".
If we were able to just think properly with the Bible and ourselves, there would be no need for God to have gifted the Church with teachers. If we were able to stand on our own, then there would be no need for discipleship... just get the Holy Spirit and have a Bible and away you go.
But we are called to make disciples.
We tend not to do that in most of our church activities. We think somehow this command of Jesus doesn't apply to us. It isn't until we are faced with the fact that we aren't doing what Jesus commanded that we can do something about it.
We are not in the majority of our church gatherings making disciples of Jesus. We may be making disciples of ourselves, or of our teachings or our Christian traditions, but we are fairly lax in making disciples of Jesus Christ.
This is what I say. What say you?
_____________________________
suffering servant,
gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
check out:
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/11/2010 1:04:56 AM
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LCannon
Posts: 759
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
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The current 'church culture' generally isn't designed for disciplineship it's designed for support and conversion or more accurately transfer growth. Christians community seem to have a limited market for disciplineship and are content to let private/homeschools suffuse for disciplineship as a defensive posture. Correct theology won't help until one appropriates it as a lifestyle obedience thus disciplineship.
_____________________________
'No man can do a great and enduring work for God who is not a man of prayer and
no man can be a man of prayer who doesn't give much time to praying.' E.M. Bounds
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/11/2010 5:54:17 AM
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gralan
Posts: 2017
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon
The current 'church culture' generally isn't designed for disciplineship it's designed for support and conversion or more accurately transfer growth. Christians community seem to have a limited market for disciplineship and are content to let private/homeschools suffuse for disciplineship as a defensive posture. Correct theology won't help until one appropriates it as a lifestyle obedience thus disciplineship.
True enough LCannon,
BTW I recognize the state. I used to live halfway between Portland and Astoria on that funny crook in the Columbia River.
I suppose what I'm hoping for is that we can sponsor Christian thoughts leading to maturity and lifestyle obedience.
Obedience always follows Faith, and is not equal to faith. That is the lesson of Romans and Hebrews. There is a better way, and a better priesthood.
i was hoping to stimulate conversation about how that might be done. I think your observation of private and homeschooling is accurate.
What do we do with adults who come to the faith. Pretty much what I've seen is we let them sink or swim.
As a person who is 40 years a disciple, I can honestly say that I've never had anyone help me personally in my growth and understanding into maturity.
I've ended up like Charles De Gaulle who said "Don't ask me who's influenced me. A lion is made up of the lambs he's digested, and I've been reading all my life."
This means CSLewis, John R Stott, Eugene Peterson, JIPacker, Bruce Larson and Keith Miller (together and separately), Elton Trueblood, RCSproul, Ravi Zacharias, among others were my mentors in the faith. I could turn to them anytime and their wisdom and advice was always there.
Its too bad I didn't have someone who cared enough to walk alongside me.
Its too sad that I cannot find folks interested in that either, even for me to just touch bases with as they live their lives growing up into maturity.
May God cause us both to will and to do according to God's own good purposes and pleasure.
_____________________________
suffering servant,
gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
check out:
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/11/2010 11:56:19 PM
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Judson50
Posts: 262
Joined: 8/15/2005
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I personally think the Church has really fallen into a Pharisaical (sp?) mindset. We are so focused on cleaning the outside of the cup, but on the inside we are filthy. We may look good, and have all the right answers and do all the right things; but our hearts are far from God.
With that said, and given the culture of information, we are more concerned about learning about Jesus over living like Jesus.
Gralan - my heart breaks to hear that you haven't had someone to come along side of you. I know for SURE, that is VERY difficult. I know a lot of people don't want to do it. One because, they are so STRETCHED in do EVERYTHING else because SO MANY "church-goers" just take from the church but do not serve the church. Therefore the saying is 15% of the members are doing 80% of the work.
With all that said, I have a guy whom I have walked wit since his salvation - the first and only person I've had the blessing to pray with when they were saved - and I take that very seriously. It is difficult because he is in Pittsburgh, but I do my best via text, long phone calls emails - you name it.
Anyhow, have tried to disciple others and I think people it, but then when you begin to push growth and conformity to the Scripture most get frustrated and believe you are being "judgmental" when all you are doing is calling a "spade a spade" . I know we must be careful through that process, but there comes a time one "wears out their" oversight.
I may be rambling now....so I will stop.
For the Glory of His Grace,
Judson
_____________________________
Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy Proverbs 27:6
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/12/2010 12:15:12 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 783
Joined: 1/15/2006
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Gralan:
I suppose it depends upon just what kind of Christians we are dealing with.
Discipleship for those who are nominals and not born of God will end up doing nothing for the kingdom of God.
Discipleship for those who are hungry and willing to learn is great...we have a bunch of those.....but....there is other problems that need to be overcome.
Discipleship for those who really want to step out and do something with their faith, they are fewer thats for sure, but those are the ones that get sidetracked by the Christian-church-culture in some churches.
You dont disciple nominals, they need to be born again first and you preach the gospel to them, persistently reminding them that they need to get into Christ before they can enter Christ's school of training.
Discipleship for hungries...well we can feed em and we can find stuff for them to do, but as Ive seen, they become frustrated and angry when leadership cant take them anywhere.
Lastly the zealots that want to bash in the doors of the devil, they are most likely to be tamed.
Heres my take on it. Putting it simply.
The america-christian-church culture creates believers that learn the bible, learn principles and learn to seek the gifts and find places to learn theology..but in many Christian lives they are taught to use their bibles and their christian teachings to insulate themselves from actually addressing the lost or the problems of the poor and afflicted. In short, learn evangelism but never evangelize, learn about the poor but do little to nothing to help them. Christians get bored with safe, secure lives that dont challenge them, lives that are so guarded that theyve built walls and towers to protect themselves from ever engaging the poor and afflicted. They simply live Christian lives that are not even close to what the scriptures teach, but at the same time talk christian talk and quote christian ideas.
Zealots are tamed, and the leadership or the congregation are the ones that tame them.
You know...."dont go there, they kill christians there", Hey, youll not have any money when you get there, you cant do Jesus work with no money". "Yea so you want to go to a foreign country but so what, there are people here too that need you so, find something here to do."
These and many more things are said that discourage and rob the courage of young christians who are willing to sacrifice their lives and fortunes to serve Christ. These young zealots make the lukewarm Christians and the dead and bored Christians look like what they really are, worldly time wasters that are not living for Christ.
Not everyone has to be a foreign missionary, thats not my point, but what I find is a christian culture that doesnt want anyone to stir the pot or create an impetus for giving to missions or put the lazy apathetic ones to the test. The current against the zealot is to pull him down to the lowest level of Christian living among the congregation. This is a disaster and an abomination.
So, we have our work cut out for us and repentance is needed in so many areas.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/12/2010 12:22:01 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 824
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
But we are called to make disciples.
We tend not to do that in most of our church activities. We think somehow this command of Jesus doesn't apply to us. It isn't until we are faced with the fact that we aren't doing what Jesus commanded that we can do something about it.
We are not in the majority of our church gatherings making disciples of Jesus. We may be making disciples of ourselves, or of our teachings or our Christian traditions, but we are fairly lax in making disciples of Jesus Christ.
This is what I say. What say you?
If you are not part of a disciple making church I say you are part of an unhealthy unspiritual lukewarm church. Or even possibly spiritually dead. You either need to set an example and change it within or find somewhere else to go.
My congregation is cranking! We all are outward focused on obeying the Great commission! Being fishers of men!
You are right we are called to make disciples!
That is is study number one at our ministry.
We average about 50-60 conversions a year.
An unevangelistic church is a sign of a spiritually anemic church.
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/12/2010 2:45:47 AM
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WilliamFloyd
Posts: 152
Joined: 11/25/2009
Status: offline
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I've found that discipleship is something which is seriously lacking in all of the assemblies which I know of. The only way to truly disciple/pastor people is to share one's life with those who are being discipled so that they can see a demonstration of the Lord's life through you. When our Lord pastored/discipled, He had His talmidim with Him everywhere He went. They got to see Him before and away from the crowds, how and what He taught and also how He lived. I found that discipling people in this fashion leaves lasting fruit and stronger disciples. I've also found that this method of discipling takes a much shorter time until a person is ready to walk in their own ministry, on their own, than what is currently thought of as discipleship in the institutional style of assembling.
_____________________________
And he shall bring back the understanding of the forefathers to their descendants, and thoughts of the descendants to their forefathers so that I won't come and smite the land with a curse.
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/12/2010 3:36:58 AM
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gralan
Posts: 2017
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
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First off jjbird, I'm glad you are concerned about the church we go to.
I'm talking about a process that has been ongoing for the last 40 years of my being a disciple of Jesus Christ.
I've been in every church setting, from cafe to home church, to all but Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christianity. It hasn't changed.
I do not know what you think about what folks consider "Theology" and how that applies in our lives... perhaps we can discuss that.
Please do not dismiss me or the churches I've been involved with in so slight a movement as a quick rebutal if you do not know our history.
I'd love to discuss this, which is why I posted.
If folks want to discuss, I'm all for it. But those who wish to prescribe ahead of knowing about the situation, well I hope it works for you but it doesn't do a thing really for my wife and I. Thanks but no thanks.
Been there, had that done to us before.
By the way, I mentioned disciples, not converts. I'm talking about disciples of Jesus Christ not members of your church or people who stand up and say "I do" at the right time in the right way with good intentions.
Please pay attention to my verbals since I really do try to be as exacting as I can being uneducated.
Aside from that, how are things going for you btw. If you are in the area here in Canyon Lake, we'd love to meet you and sit down and talk & pray.
your brother and sister,
greg and christine anderson
The church we go to has it all together for a local church. I do not know what you think I was talking about, but obviously one of us missed the point.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
But we are called to make disciples.
We tend not to do that in most of our church activities. We think somehow this command of Jesus doesn't apply to us. It isn't until we are faced with the fact that we aren't doing what Jesus commanded that we can do something about it.
We are not in the majority of our church gatherings making disciples of Jesus. We may be making disciples of ourselves, or of our teachings or our Christian traditions, but we are fairly lax in making disciples of Jesus Christ.
This is what I say. What say you?
If you are not part of a disciple making church I say you are part of an unhealthy unspiritual lukewarm church. Or even possibly spiritually dead. You either need to set an example and change it within or find somewhere else to go.
My congregation is cranking! We all are outward focused on obeying the Great commission! Being fishers of men!
You are right we are called to make disciples!
That is is study number one at our ministry.
We average about 50-60 conversions a year.
An unevangelistic church is a sign of a spiritually anemic church.
_____________________________
suffering servant,
gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
check out:
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/12/2010 3:01:18 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 824
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
First off jjbird, I'm glad you are concerned about the church we go to.
I'm talking about a process that has been ongoing for the last 40 years of my being a disciple of Jesus Christ.
I've been in every church setting, from cafe to home church, to all but Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christianity. It hasn't changed.
I do not know what you think about what folks consider "Theology" and how that applies in our lives... perhaps we can discuss that.
Please do not dismiss me or the churches I've been involved with in so slight a movement as a quick rebutal if you do not know our history.
I'd love to discuss this, which is why I posted.
If folks want to discuss, I'm all for it. But those who wish to prescribe ahead of knowing about the situation, well I hope it works for you but it doesn't do a thing really for my wife and I. Thanks but no thanks.
Been there, had that done to us before.
By the way, I mentioned disciples, not converts. I'm talking about disciples of Jesus Christ not members of your church or people who stand up and say "I do" at the right time in the right way with good intentions.
Please pay attention to my verbals since I really do try to be as exacting as I can being uneducated.
Aside from that, how are things going for you btw. If you are in the area here in Canyon Lake, we'd love to meet you and sit down and talk & pray.
your brother and sister,
greg and christine anderson
The church we go to has it all together for a local church. I do not know what you think I was talking about, but obviously one of us missed the point.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
But we are called to make disciples.
We tend not to do that in most of our church activities. We think somehow this command of Jesus doesn't apply to us. It isn't until we are faced with the fact that we aren't doing what Jesus commanded that we can do something about it.
We are not in the majority of our church gatherings making disciples of Jesus. We may be making disciples of ourselves, or of our teachings or our Christian traditions, but we are fairly lax in making disciples of Jesus Christ.
This is what I say. What say you?
If you are not part of a disciple making church I say you are part of an unhealthy unspiritual lukewarm church. Or even possibly spiritually dead. You either need to set an example and change it within or find somewhere else to go.
My congregation is cranking! We all are outward focused on obeying the Great commission! Being fishers of men!
You are right we are called to make disciples!
That is is study number one at our ministry.
We average about 50-60 conversions a year.
An unevangelistic church is a sign of a spiritually anemic church.
Gralan,
Hey buddy I was speaking in a general manner and wasn't casting judgment on the conduct of your church.
I was speaking hypothetically if anyone's church is not making disciples then......blah blah blah.
Anyways I think this is a great thread to start my friend! 
< Message edited by jjbird -- 3/13/2010 8:53:39 AM >
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/12/2010 3:35:12 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
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I'm probably the most unchurched man in the United States of America. I'm really only familiar with one Church my whole life. I now have a great new Church, but I feel like I am learning everything all over again. The Church I originally come from is a more soulful Church, everything was more spontaneous, my new Church is more methodical, less emotional. Reading out of the Hymnal just doesn't feel right to me.I'm trying to keep up with the words in the Hymnal more than actually worshipping God. The word is definitely being preached at this Church, but the worship style is just not what I'm used to. Is it suppose to be this hard to find a place of worship or are my expectations too high?
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/12/2010 9:54:24 PM
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gralan
Posts: 2017
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
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Saved34,
As a person who was been on both sides of the Church (wet and dry, so to speak) I can tell you that I enjoy boisterous praise and emotional release, being free to respond however I feel led, and a few numerous other things that belong in another thread topic probably.
I will say that loving God with all our mind, soul, heart and strength requires more than the praise aspect, and that historically the worship of God has always been a structured event with the proclamation of God's word and responsive actions. That is if you want to measure worship at least since Moses.
that fact made me relook at what I thought of worship. But in terms of structure there are varying ways this can be done and accomplish the same thing. I was astounded when I read the book "Worship Old and New". I realized much of what I thought about the Bible's definition of worship was uninformed.
I'm sorry that it seems too much letter, and I'm glad the proclamation of God's Word is strong.
At our last church, in NM, there were Bible studies, prayer groups, praise gatherings, fellowship meals, and all forms of fellowship and worship going on. We also operated under the Book of Common Prayer.
Perhaps you need to be a spark of life in that church to meet all of your fellowship needs there. If not formally, there probably some folks who would love to get together and join you in making a tremendously joyful noise with more heart and less formal format.
Peace to you as you go minister to those folks at your church, joining with them in being led by the Holy Spirit into all truth to God's praise.
I think also that sometimes we think gathering beween the walls is where God meets His holy nation. Perhaps a group getting together from several different churches for fellowship and praise might be considered?
Remember to keep looking up, one of these days you might be the first to see Him!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
I'm probably the most unchurched man in the United States of America. I'm really only familiar with one Church my whole life. I now have a great new Church, but I feel like I am learning everything all over again. The Church I originally come from is a more soulful Church, everything was more spontaneous, my new Church is more methodical, less emotional. Reading out of the Hymnal just doesn't feel right to me.I'm trying to keep up with the words in the Hymnal more than actually worshipping God. The word is definitely being preached at this Church, but the worship style is just not what I'm used to. Is it suppose to be this hard to find a place of worship or are my expectations too high?
_____________________________
suffering servant,
gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
check out:
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/16/2010 1:30:51 AM
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gralan
Posts: 2017
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
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Hah! Did my wife put my journal online somewhere? John, you pegged that well. And I say that not just because I agree with you. It's humbling to read the diagnosis. We are the Bride, this is describing the act that we need to get together in response prior to our Bridegroom's return.
In farming terms, understanding the work that is necessary to ensure a good harvest means that there are ditches to be dug or rerouted, soils need to be prepared, rocks and other obstacles need to cleared as necessary only (because sometimes they protect from soil erosion and high winds), etc.
There are some of us who see some of the work that needs to be done in our Master's fields. Jesus said in his parables of the Kingdom that the field with the tares in it is the world (please note: Not the church but the world. Those are Jesus' words.) He says the angels will come and gather up the tares first and throw them into the furnace of fire to be destroyed and then the harvest of the wheat shall happen.
Let us perservere in the tasks our PayMaster hired us to do, whether to tend soil, seed, water, fertilize, etc. In doing so we will do what is expected of us to do. All of us have gifts, and there are many traits we all share because of the Spirit of Christ who dwells in us. We can all encourage and give words to help each other and those younger in the faith. If we do this, I believe we will be discipling others in at least the most common sense.
But to think we are discipling others by just public reading of the Scriptures and exhortation, well discipleship means involvement with the disciple. Sitting in a pew or a class room seat is not involvement. IMO.
I am amazed at the response in the thread here and await seeing the wisdom God has given that others will share with the rest of us if God smiles upon this thread.
May God who knows our hearts continue to love us in our new creation because of Jesus Christ our Lord.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Gralan:
I suppose it depends upon just what kind of Christians we are dealing with.
Discipleship for those who are nominals and not born of God will end up doing nothing for the kingdom of God.
Discipleship for those who are hungry and willing to learn is great...we have a bunch of those.....but....there is other problems that need to be overcome.
Discipleship for those who really want to step out and do something with their faith, they are fewer thats for sure, but those are the ones that get sidetracked by the Christian-church-culture in some churches.
You dont disciple nominals, they need to be born again first and you preach the gospel to them, persistently reminding them that they need to get into Christ before they can enter Christ's school of training.
Discipleship for hungries...well we can feed em and we can find stuff for them to do, but as Ive seen, they become frustrated and angry when leadership cant take them anywhere.
Lastly the zealots that want to bash in the doors of the devil, they are most likely to be tamed.
Heres my take on it. Putting it simply.
The america-christian-church culture creates believers that learn the bible, learn principles and learn to seek the gifts and find places to learn theology..but in many Christian lives they are taught to use their bibles and their christian teachings to insulate themselves from actually addressing the lost or the problems of the poor and afflicted. In short, learn evangelism but never evangelize, learn about the poor but do little to nothing to help them. Christians get bored with safe, secure lives that dont challenge them, lives that are so guarded that theyve built walls and towers to protect themselves from ever engaging the poor and afflicted. They simply live Christian lives that are not even close to what the scriptures teach, but at the same time talk christian talk and quote christian ideas.
Zealots are tamed, and the leadership or the congregation are the ones that tame them.
You know...."dont go there, they kill christians there", Hey, youll not have any money when you get there, you cant do Jesus work with no money". "Yea so you want to go to a foreign country but so what, there are people here too that need you so, find something here to do."
These and many more things are said that discourage and rob the courage of young christians who are willing to sacrifice their lives and fortunes to serve Christ. These young zealots make the lukewarm Christians and the dead and bored Christians look like what they really are, worldly time wasters that are not living for Christ.
Not everyone has to be a foreign missionary, thats not my point, but what I find is a christian culture that doesnt want anyone to stir the pot or create an impetus for giving to missions or put the lazy apathetic ones to the test. The current against the zealot is to pull him down to the lowest level of Christian living among the congregation. This is a disaster and an abomination.
So, we have our work cut out for us and repentance is needed in so many areas.
John
_____________________________
suffering servant,
gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
check out:
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/16/2010 9:43:13 AM
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MysterySolved
Posts: 289
Joined: 3/2/2010
Status: offline
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Unfortunately, it is the unlearning of what most have been taught is truth that makes knowing the truth so difficult. The most devoted and churched are many times the hardest to disciple. In order to share the truth (disciple), one must have the truth.
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/16/2010 10:23:21 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2589
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
I'm probably the most unchurched man in the United States of America. I'm really only familiar with one Church my whole life. I now have a great new Church, but I feel like I am learning everything all over again. The Church I originally come from is a more soulful Church, everything was more spontaneous, my new Church is more methodical, less emotional. Reading out of the Hymnal just doesn't feel right to me.I'm trying to keep up with the words in the Hymnal more than actually worshipping God. The word is definitely being preached at this Church, but the worship style is just not what I'm used to. Is it suppose to be this hard to find a place of worship or are my expectations too high?
Maybe you could do a study on the history of the hymns you are singing and find out where the composer was in his/her walk with Christ that led to the creation of the song. You might be surprised at how their faith will touch you now. Those words weren't just written in a void.
_____________________________
Stephanie
A heart at peace gives life to the body, but envy rots the bones. ~~Proverbs 14:30 NIV~~
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/16/2010 12:53:35 PM
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WilliamFloyd
Posts: 152
Joined: 11/25/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
Unfortunately, it is the unlearning of what most have been taught is truth that makes knowing the truth so difficult. The most devoted and churched are many times the hardest to disciple. In order to share the truth (disciple), one must have the truth.
Exactly so. Instead of obedience, many walk in rebellion and refuse to acknowledge it or even fathom the possibility that the spirit/truth which they walk in isn't the Lords Spirit/truth.
_____________________________
And he shall bring back the understanding of the forefathers to their descendants, and thoughts of the descendants to their forefathers so that I won't come and smite the land with a curse.
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/16/2010 1:29:31 PM
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gralan
Posts: 2017
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
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StephK: I have actually done some of what you recommended, because I like history mainly and history of Christians in particular.
What I learned about some of them made me rethink some hymns. I then began to look at what has been called "God is my girlfriend" kind of songs.
Many church traditions have some great hymns, often the same ones shared by others depending. I've enjoyed some of the old Gospel hymn books often found now in thrift stores. ha
I like the hymns in particular that are like most Weslyan hymns, those brothers liked to start at or before Creation and end with us in Heaven (all 8 verses and sometimes more.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: WilliamFloyd
quote:
ORIGINAL: MysterySolved
Unfortunately, it is the unlearning of what most have been taught is truth that makes knowing the truth so difficult. The most devoted and churched are many times the hardest to disciple. In order to share the truth (disciple), one must have the truth.
Exactly so. Instead of obedience, many walk in rebellion and refuse to acknowledge it or even fathom the possibility that the spirit/truth which they walk in isn't the Lords Spirit/truth.
Just thinking of denominational twists, I went to a PCUSA church where the former pastor was basically a Unitarian New Ager. The present pastor was truly a God-sent leader who was used to bring the Good News of God in Jesus Christ to that congregation and community.
There were elders who had no idea about Atonement, Election, the Bible being the literal word of God, etc. Most of the Elders got the position because everybody else had served, or because they wanted to see how session worked, because they were older than others, etc. To talk to them even of Calvinism was pretty much a losing proposition.
I mention this because I'd been raised in the Reformed Tradition, and I knew more by the 7th grade than these senior adults did about the essentials of the faith and our understanding of God who revealed Himself in Jesus and through the Bible.
My wife and I eventually were led to go to a Church where we didn't have to be "missionaries" in the congregation, and real body life was happening. It was a joy to have a slight break.
Because we live in a "Democratic Republic" some folks think that freedom of religion applies to freedom of thinking whatever they want to about Christianity. There are areas we have variances of opinions within what can be called the pale of orthodoxy, but on essentials there can be no disagreement without being in error.
I'm glad we do not have to be perfect and complete in our understanding of everything, and I learn things continuously. But there are just some things that have been left untaught, particularly to adults. Not every adult in a church even has the education our pre-teen children get about the one true faith once for all delivered unto the saints.
What my wife and I are still learning, after 8 years, is being more intentional about our faith and practice. This has led us on quite an adventure and fits right in with the direction we see ourselves being led towards.
Of course, a stalled car is easier to turn once you get it moving even just a little... we look forward to continued adventure for the rest of this life and for eternity.
May God richly bless us, His beloved.
_____________________________
suffering servant,
gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
check out:
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/18/2010 6:58:57 AM
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cposey
Posts: 683
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: offline
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I am probably one of those people who don't like the term theology. Although i enjoyed hearing your perspective on the definition and usage, and it gave me something to think about. My experience with theology has been people try to place their own wisdom, knowledge and understading, couple it with a denomination and call it truth. In my relationship with Christ i can humbly admit i have been wrong many times over. But alot of times for myself and others i have seen people are quick to judge and call out people for false teachings, false beliefs, while it is usually a surface understanding and they have not been blessed with a deeper understanding. All wisdom, knowledge and understanding comes from the Lord our God alone, yet we want to stake a claim on it most of the time and HE doesn't receive all the glory, because we will claim it to be intellect.
Concerning discipleship it took me 13 years to find someone willing to disciple me. All of the people i had inquired to do it, flat out said they had too much going on and didn't even take a moment to pray about it. I have done some discipleship myself for others, but have only found one person willing to sit in authority over me. Believe it or not, i desired to sit under someone. I have been to at least 40 churches and a discipleship program was rare or limited. Most of the time my age or gender would restrict me from the program. Next to gathering together to worship God, discipleship is as important as it gets, yet most churches treat it as a optional program or don't offer it at all. Still even some only offer it if you fit the "image" the church would like to project for leadership. Personally i think that the culture of this day and age has been a huge influence in making discipleship a cellar dweller and optional. Our culture celebrates youth, free thinking and self authority. "out of the mouth of babes" is a popular saying. Yet in reality this is saying that the young are so much more wise and know more about what is popular and the older you get the more you lose of yourself. The old wise man or woman, the grandparent that speaks of ancient and irrelavant times is the view of culture today. We have moved from experience, education, and wisdom as being essential for living a worthy life to staying young, youth is wasted on the young, a self deciding society. Therefore most people do not feel they need to sit in a humble position underneath someone else. As long as they got the Bible, and the Holy Spirit, and the Sunday morning sermon they can do it on their own. What a stark contrast to what God's heart desires for HIS people.
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/18/2010 9:15:33 AM
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crankius
Posts: 3362
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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gralan,
Is there much discipleship happening in the church you currently attend?
When I was a youth, I was carefully discipled by my youth pastor, but since then no one has discipled me other than the Lord.
The churches I have been in have a mode of functioning that just doesn't lend itself to true discipleship. Even the healthy churches I've been in have not had discipleship for healthy, growing believers. You are given options of serving, like cleaning the church or working in the nursery or being the treasurer, etc., but discipleship (with growth into maturity) is scarce.
I've told myself that maybe this is good, because it has forced me to always be immersed in the Word, and to look to teachers in books and do studies on our own as a family. We've grown so much this way and it has made us a stronger family.
Programs are so...programmy...and if a church started a discipleship program I probably wouldn't participate. 
How can church leadership encourage more discipleship that isn't just focused on meeting with the pastor or other elders/leaders? How do you see that it could happen?
Maybe you could also discuss a bit more what you think discipleship is and what it isn't.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
God's Attributes
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/18/2010 1:58:40 PM
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WilliamFloyd
Posts: 152
Joined: 11/25/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
Programs are so...programmy...and if a church started a discipleship program I probably wouldn't participate.
True discipleship can't be patterned after a program because to disciple involves too much time and to much variety to be structured into a one size fits all sort of mold. A person called to be a prophet has questions and needs which someone who is called to be a pastor or a teacher will have. Not just anyone can disciple anyone. And then there are also times that the Lord will lead people to be discipled by different people because these people have different things to offer which that person needs for thier own calling/walk.
quote:
How can church leadership encourage more discipleship that isn't just focused on meeting with the pastor or other elders/leaders? How do you see that it could happen?
By stepping up themselves and being disciplers. Simply delivering a weekly teaching or weekly message of encouragment is far from making disciples.
_____________________________
And he shall bring back the understanding of the forefathers to their descendants, and thoughts of the descendants to their forefathers so that I won't come and smite the land with a curse.
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/18/2010 3:00:07 PM
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gralan
Posts: 2017
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cposey
I am probably one of those people who don't like the term theology. Although i enjoyed hearing your perspective on the definition and usage, and it gave me something to think about. My experience with theology has been people try to place their own wisdom, knowledge and understading, couple it with a denomination and call it truth. In my relationship with Christ i can humbly admit i have been wrong many times over. But alot of times for myself and others i have seen people are quick to judge and call out people for false teachings, false beliefs, while it is usually a surface understanding and they have not been blessed with a deeper understanding. All wisdom, knowledge and understanding comes from the Lord our God alone, yet we want to stake a claim on it most of the time and HE doesn't receive all the glory, because we will claim it to be intellect.
Concerning discipleship it took me 13 years to find someone willing to disciple me. All of the people i had inquired to do it, flat out said they had too much going on and didn't even take a moment to pray about it. I have done some discipleship myself for others, but have only found one person willing to sit in authority over me.
Therefore most people do not feel they need to sit in a humble position underneath someone else. As long as they got the Bible, and the Holy Spirit, and the Sunday morning sermon they can do it on their own. What a stark contrast to what God's heart desires for HIS people.
I was dragged kicking and screaming into the idea that theology was not about people's ideas of God, or denominational teachings but rather our knowledge of God. I think of C.S. Lewis who one day discovered that he was "one of them" (meaning Christians). haha It was a bit of a shock to his system.
I know a lot of people have trouble with him, but studying what I can of Karl Barth (being poor means I'm restricted to portions of his work available often through citings or certain chapters.) The three main reasons I enjoy reading Barth are that he focuses upon Jesus Christ, he is someone who says he believes to understand (primacy of faith and being a new creation), and that he didn't think we should take what he said verbatim but rather to keep exploring the knowledge of God as revealed in the Bible and the person of Jesus Christ.
I'm so glad to be reading there are folks out here in the forums who don't mind talking about how important it is for us to know God, and then to begin trying to understand what we know about God. Theology and Doctrine fall to the 2nd and 3rd place in my priorities when dealing with groups of Christians. I'm more interested in whether or not they love. I think the epistles of John place that in perspective with spiritual cement, as it were.
Sometimes where we run into trouble I think is that we have disparity of shared vocabulary. There are numerous reasons for that IMO, but mainly it stems from our lack of awareness that the conversation about our personal and corporate knowledge of God as God's people has been going on for thousands of years. This ties in I think with the focus on "young, hep (oops, they don't use that word anymore), quick, new, flashy" and along with that we get confused, intellectually lazy, heretical and worldly.
There are lots of us who don't get it, concerning the major troubles in the Christian Arena. There are lots of actors and players, judges and cynics, hucksters, and then there are lots of folks who just want to worship God and love their neighbors in service to Jesus Christ while looking for His return and the start of something new.
Thats about enough from me about this. I need less to do monologue than to encourage my brethren to think about our faith, and the Blood of Christ that unites us. We are called to have renewed minds. Sometimes that means washing the latest fads our of our proverbial hair, and look to the history of what God has self-revealed. IMO.
Again let me state, I believe we all get somethings right, and some things close enough, other things pretty close, and sometimes (as I can attest to) get things wrong. God does not judge us on our knowledge about God, but rather our knowing God. The dynamic, IMO, is similar to my wife. I learn about my wife as time goes on, and my knowledge grows. But if I'm not in active relationship with her, the point is moot.
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/18/2010 3:19:34 PM
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gralan
Posts: 2017
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
gralan,
Is there much discipleship happening in the church you currently attend?
When I was a youth, I was carefully discipled by my youth pastor, but since then no one has discipled me other than the Lord.
No crankius, that is the direction they are going with the enlargement of proven elders and the focus outside of worship being Home Groups. I've met with an senior elder who has a visitation ministry, and will be meeting with as associate pastor to see if something can be done in terms of learning from them "on the road" so to speak. The associate pastor was in Africa as a missionary and moved to New Orleans to help there with the devastation. He left the parent church denomination because its leadership has become heretical, and joined in with us in a newly formed organzation that has worldwide support and oversight.
My biggest concern, where God has been leading us as a married couple, is for those whom the "church" and its programs do not meet the needs of. I'd love to talk more about that... but this is one of the reasons I began looking at Theology.
We are told by Jesus to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.
That blew my circuits. Aside from deluding ourselves about our condition, this seemed impossible, and that seemed to be antithetical to what I knew of Jesus' commands.
Then I read that verse in context, while studying a book by John R Stott on the practical walk of faith according to the Sermon on the Mount. Wow. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I do not think so... Jesus had just finished about causing the rain to fall on the fields of the righteous and the unrighteous. He spoke about really loving your enemies, and going beyond actions into grace.
We are called, if I'm not mistaken, to be spiritually mature and loving others the same way God has shown God's love to all mankind.
Love as God loves. That's still unattainable on my own, but that also is the point. I need to be grafted into Jesus and have His life and love flowing into me and spilling out all over those around me.
I know I'm not saying this perhaps in exactly the way it's been described before, or that you use terms or how you put that all together. That is what dialogue is for, I thought, here at the forums.
Instead what I've seen is a lot of worldly-critical judgmentalism, and few but welcomed examples among the thousands who access the forums of brotherly kindness - even in correction.
And again, I've blabbed enough for this response.  Baaa, sure yabetcha!
The churches I have been in have a mode of functioning that just doesn't lend itself to true discipleship. Even the healthy churches I've been in have not had discipleship for healthy, growing believers. You are given options of serving, like cleaning the church or working in the nursery or being the treasurer, etc., but discipleship (with growth into maturity) is scarce.
I've told myself that maybe this is good, because it has forced me to always be immersed in the Word, and to look to teachers in books and do studies on our own as a family. We've grown so much this way and it has made us a stronger family.
Wow. I think one of the main functions of a Christian family is to do just what you testified to. And the role of a discipler IMO is to walk alongside, not to be perfect or have it all together. That sets up a false image of a maturity which is unrealistic. It took me to see Bruce Larson in action to realize you can acknowledge your humanness and frailty while still pointing to Christ! And along the way we do bear fruit, we do gain awareness, and we discover we can be comfortable in our new creation skin.
Programs are so...programmy...and if a church started a discipleship program I probably wouldn't participate.
How can church leadership encourage more discipleship that isn't just focused on meeting with the pastor or other elders/leaders? How do you see that it could happen?
Maybe you could also discuss a bit more what you think discipleship is and what it isn't.
so did I stir up the mud enough?
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RE: Thinking about Theology and discipleship - 3/18/2010 3:26:56 PM
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gralan
Posts: 2017
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
Status: offline
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StephK, and all y'alls who dare enter this thread,
I found a nice source for sound materials, including hymns, is ccel.org
I've been a frequenter and supporter of theirs since 1998. I have not done any transcribing for them yet, but that has been because there is so much more going on in my life at this point. But one of these days, I hope to at least proof-read materials before they are released on their website.
Perhaps one of the things we can do here is post resources, or we can start a thread perhaps where we do that. On the seminary forum for my online school we started a resource thread, as well as a thread where we posted if and what we are doing online, with blogs, etc. I have a blog as a student requirement, but I'm not at a place where I'll begin posting. By the time I get through the next 2 years I'll have enough to equal a dissertation, and I'll be posting that online. And that's just for my bachelors in Theology. Whew. But I'm a student at heart. I do not think the learning ever stops.
I look forward to being a finite but new creation experiencing eternal life worshiping and learning about each other and our infinite God with no end possible. what a life.
_____________________________
suffering servant,
gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
//TrinityTheology.org/
check out:
//freecourses.trinitytheology.org/
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