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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/23/2008 4:58:32 AM
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kelman
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quote:
What then is the validity of 1 Cor 3? If Jesus is sufficient for the faithful, what is this nonsense about "testing one's works", and "suffering a loss"? A loss of what?
Was Paul suffering from dehydration when he wrote this?
Paul, wasn't; but, apparently those who seek such an erroneous interpretation simply to bolster their presuppostions are suffering from something...possibly dehydration.
It speaks about teaching doctrine building the house of God. Nothing is said about the preacher first dying. Nothing is said about this being a place for the evangelist to go after his death. Nothing is said about this applying to those people in the church that are not evangelists building on the building of Christ's church. Nothing is said about the one doing the preaching HIMSELF being BURNED with fire.
And, NOTHING is said about appealing to some magical indulgence system that would somehow burn "temporal" sins out of the one bound for heaven.
I've seen some of the eisegetical methods used by RC to propose these passages as proof for "purgatory" - nothing could be more obvious.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/23/2008 5:04:55 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5484
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quote:
"And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:32)
This implies that there are some sins that can be forgiven after death. Purification after death is what we call Purgatory. You are inferring that which cannot be substantiated from this verse and its companion verses(Mark 3:28-30; 1John 5:16). Christ is simply saying there is no forgiveness for this sin EVER. There were no possible circumstances in which the sinner could find forgiveness. He certainly did not say that any sin unpardoned here would be pardoned hereafter.
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"May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus. "(2 Timothy 1:16-18)
Here Paul prays for his dead friend Onesiphorus. Again, if Onesiphorus were in heaven, he would not be in need of prayers, and if he were in hell, prayer would be pointless. This implies that Paul believed in Purgatory
HUH? Where do you get that from? There's no intimation Onesiphorus is dead. Do you have any details in Scripture that he was dead at the time the letter was written? I'll answer for you - no you do not.
Paul is contrasting the unfaithful men with this faithful man and prays for Onesiphorus and his family. Even the ECF's who believe in a "purgatory" don't speak of this faithful man being dead. Chrysostom speaks of him as quite alive in both 2Tim 1 and 2Tim 4.
There is not the slightest piece of evidence in Scripture for a "purgatory". - not one. There is no support in all of Scripture for "suffering" after death while on your way to heaven. There is no support in all of Scripture for a "debt owed due to sin" that Christ has not paid for believers.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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[Deleted] - 8/26/2008 2:34:44 AM
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/26/2008 3:13:37 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: .nile.
I think that somewhere Paul says: we shall not all sleep (like Samuel and Daniel are written to have) for some like Moses and Elijah were said to have been taken and appeared with Jesus Christ talking together with the three inner counsel Apostles. Yes, Paul says this in 1Cor 15:51. Here, he is speaking about what is commonly referred to as The Rapture. These passages have nothing to do with those few who have been taken bodily to heaven such as Moses and Elijah.
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Therefore, God can design any punishment whatsoever He chooses or desires for His Judgement is Sound in Patience, Mercy, and Truth. Yes, God certainly can design whatever punishment He wants to; and, He has told us what that is - and it is not purgatory.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/26/2008 1:09:30 PM
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loco79
Posts: 43
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Kelman:
Purgatory literally means purification, we Catholics believe that the soud goes under a purificatio at death (purgatory), that way our soul can be clensed and pure for the lord.
Now i know that baptism is a purification, and yet is it the only one needed? I am a crhistian and yet I am a sinner, at this very moment if I personally dont believe my soul is purified enough to meet the lord. I say this because sin taints the soul. Because if my soul were 100% purified and one with God, then I would be incapable of sin, just as Jesus tells us his true believers wont sin. And since i can and will sin, at the moment of my death is my sould really any different than it is right now(for example if i were to die right now in lets say a car accident)? No my soul is still the same tainted soul it was when i was in the car, at my death. And since only the pure can enter heaven, and my sould isnt pure yet, then a purification process is needed(maybe even by fire).
Without Purgatory, when really is a soul purified and sin removed from the soul? We know as long as we have our physical bodies, sin cannot be removed totally from the soul. And if you are capable of sin, then your soul can never really be purged completely of the ability to sin. This purging begins at death, now how long it takes for each person, who knows? And still no one can claim (according to protestants) to be without sin, and if are not without sin, then your soul is perfect for the entrance into heaven.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 8/27/2008 4:03:28 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5484
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quote:
ORIGINAL: loco79
Purgatory literally means purification, we Catholics believe that the soud goes under a purificatio at death (purgatory), that way our soul can be clensed and pure for the lord. Yet God says it is He who does the cleansing of our souls - not a place. We see this in the following verses.
1John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Ephesians 5:26-27 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
There is nothing man can do to make himself acceptable to God, or to cleanse himself before God. Man simply doesn't have that power; but, there is One who does have that power and authority as the above passages from the Word of God testify.
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Now i know that baptism is a purification, and yet is it the only one needed? Water baptism can't purify; but, there is one baptism which can - that of the Holy Spirit. And truly, that is the only baptism ever needed and the baptism which Christ provided.
John 1:23 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
quote:
I am a crhistian and yet I am a sinner, at this very moment if I personally dont believe my soul is purified enough to meet the lord. There's nothing we can do to purify our souls - that is God's job. Surely, God works within us even now as we grow in His grace and overcome sin in our lives. I agree we are all sinners and will remain sinners, though, decreasingly so.
Our souls, otoh, are purified if the Holy Spirit dwells within us. John 3:6-8 assures us of this as does Titus 3:5. It is precisely because Christ has cleansed us from all sin that we are able to immediately enter heaven upon death. The body?....it must wait upon the last day to be purified/glorified then it too enters heaven.
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I say this because sin taints the soul. Because if my soul were 100% purified and one with God, then I would be incapable of sin, just as Jesus tells us his true believers wont sin. Jesus never tells us that we won't sin. We are told in 1John 2:1 that if we do sin, we have an Advocate with the Father - Jesus Christ the righteous.
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And since i can and will sin, at the moment of my death is my sould really any different than it is right now(for example if i were to die right now in lets say a car accident)? Your soul is indeed different if, in fact, you are "in Christ" and the Holy Spirit dwells within you. We see this in 1Cor 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?". Here Paul makes allusion to the mystical "temple" or body of Christ constituted of all true believers. We can take great comfort especially in the last verse of that chapter "And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's."
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No my soul is still the same tainted soul it was when i was in the car, at my death. And since only the pure can enter heaven, and my sould isnt pure yet, then a purification process is needed(maybe even by fire).
If God has shown us this mercy, there is no greater purification of the soul than that of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. And, that is something neither men, a place or literal fire can accomplish.
quote:
Without Purgatory, when really is a soul purified and sin removed from the soul? When the Holy Spirit indwells us, when we are "born from above", when God grants us faith and repentance our souls are "purifed" and our sins have been forgiven and "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." Psalm 103:12
quote:
We know as long as we have our physical bodies, sin cannot be removed totally from the soul. True, as long as we are in our physical bodies sin will be with us. But, not in our spirit existence do we find sin. This spirit has been been irrevocably changed. God gives us a new spirit, no longer made of stone(Eze 36:26). Jesus tells us that no one can enter heaven unless he is "born from above"(Jn 3:5). And, when our spirits are "born from above" we immediately enter heaven upon physical death.
quote:
And still no one can claim (according to protestants) to be without sin, and if are not without sin, then your soul is perfect for the entrance into heaven. We are free from the penalty of all sin by the blood of Jesus Christ as God tells us in:
1John 1:7 and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
And if cleansed of all sin, our soul is made perfect and ready to enter God's holy heaven at any time.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 9/6/2008 2:15:52 AM
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whisperingwaters
Posts: 21
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: loco79
Purgatory literally means purification, we Catholics believe that the soud goes under a purificatio at death (purgatory), that way our soul can be clensed and pure for the lord. Yet God says it is He who does the cleansing of our souls - not a place. We see this in the following verses.
1John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Ephesians 5:26-27 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
There is nothing man can do to make himself acceptable to God, or to cleanse himself before God. Man simply doesn't have that power; but, there is One who does have that power and authority as the above passages from the Word of God testify.
quote:
Now i know that baptism is a purification, and yet is it the only one needed? Water baptism can't purify; but, there is one baptism which can - that of the Holy Spirit. And truly, that is the only baptism ever needed and the baptism which Christ provided.
John 1:23 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
quote:
I am a crhistian and yet I am a sinner, at this very moment if I personally dont believe my soul is purified enough to meet the lord. There's nothing we can do to purify our souls - that is God's job. Surely, God works within us even now as we grow in His grace and overcome sin in our lives. I agree we are all sinners and will remain sinners, though, decreasingly so.
Our souls, otoh, are purified if the Holy Spirit dwells within us. John 3:6-8 assures us of this as does Titus 3:5. It is precisely because Christ has cleansed us from all sin that we are able to immediately enter heaven upon death. The body?....it must wait upon the last day to be purified/glorified then it too enters heaven.
quote:
I say this because sin taints the soul. Because if my soul were 100% purified and one with God, then I would be incapable of sin, just as Jesus tells us his true believers wont sin. Jesus never tells us that we won't sin. We are told in 1John 2:1 that if we do sin, we have an Advocate with the Father - Jesus Christ the righteous.
quote:
And since i can and will sin, at the moment of my death is my sould really any different than it is right now(for example if i were to die right now in lets say a car accident)? Your soul is indeed different if, in fact, you are "in Christ" and the Holy Spirit dwells within you. We see this in 1Cor 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?". Here Paul makes allusion to the mystical "temple" or body of Christ constituted of all true believers. We can take great comfort especially in the last verse of that chapter "And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's."
quote:
No my soul is still the same tainted soul it was when i was in the car, at my death. And since only the pure can enter heaven, and my sould isnt pure yet, then a purification process is needed(maybe even by fire).
If God has shown us this mercy, there is no greater purification of the soul than that of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. And, that is something neither men, a place or literal fire can accomplish.
quote:
Without Purgatory, when really is a soul purified and sin removed from the soul? When the Holy Spirit indwells us, when we are "born from above", when God grants us faith and repentance our souls are "purifed" and our sins have been forgiven and "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." Psalm 103:12
quote:
We know as long as we have our physical bodies, sin cannot be removed totally from the soul. True, as long as we are in our physical bodies sin will be with us. But, not in our spirit existence do we find sin. This spirit has been been irrevocably changed. God gives us a new spirit, no longer made of stone(Eze 36:26). Jesus tells us that no one can enter heaven unless he is "born from above"(Jn 3:5). And, when our spirits are "born from above" we immediately enter heaven upon physical death.
quote:
And still no one can claim (according to protestants) to be without sin, and if are not without sin, then your soul is perfect for the entrance into heaven. We are free from the penalty of all sin by the blood of Jesus Christ as God tells us in:
1John 1:7 and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
And if cleansed of all sin, our soul is made perfect and ready to enter God's holy heaven at any time.
Good posting!
_____________________________
The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the well-spring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Proverbs 18:4
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 9/6/2008 3:42:11 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5484
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quote:
Good posting!
Thank you for the encouragement, whisperingwaters.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 9/16/2008 7:33:31 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1463
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
There is nothing man can do to make himself acceptable to God, or to cleanse himself before God
quote:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
That he might sanctify and cleanse it
That's a lot of "if"'s and "might"'s. Apparently there is something we must do, if the construction of the sentences above is conditional. The use of "if" implies conditionality on the latter half of the sentence happening as a result of the first half.
This is how English works. If "there is nothing man can do", the above sentences would contain no "if"'s, and would not be conditional.
_____________________________
...since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith...
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 9/17/2008 5:55:47 PM
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kelman
Posts: 5484
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
There is nothing man can do to make himself acceptable to God, or to cleanse himself before God
quote:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another
That's a lot of "if"'s and "might"'s. Apparently there is something we must do, if the construction of the sentences above is conditional. The use of "if" implies conditionality on the latter half of the sentence happening as a result of the first half. When attempting to make a scriptural point, it's always best to look at the context. If you don't, you risk making incorrect assertions as we see above.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Read in its context we see that John is warning against a false faith and hypocrisy(vs 6). IOW, we cannot say we have fellowship with Christ (saved), if we walk in darkness (live in sin and error). So, the point is a true believer will evidence the fruit of the Spirit; and if we don’t, we deceive ourselves when we say we are saved. Therefore, we can understand that the poster is in error when he claims a “condition” for salvation. Rather, what we see is a result of salvation.
quote:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, Again, when we look at the verses surrounding the verse being commented upon, the meaning becomes clear.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
We are ignorant of ourselves and deceive ourselves if we think we have no sin, therefore, the light/word of God is not in us (not saved). But, of the one confessing his sins, of the one who recognizes he is a sinner what is meant here is the continual application of God's grace on the one confessing his sins to Him. We know this because we see in verse 7 that it is the blood of Jesus which cleanseth (present tense).
This is not speaking of the initial act of justification, which is presupposed of the one who confesses his sins before God. There is nothing man can do to be justified by God and that includes confession of sin. It is entirely a sovereign act of mercy on the part of God.
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That he might sanctify and cleanse it Now, here the poster moves from 1John to Ephesians 5:26 with no explanation that he is referencing an entirely different book of Scripture. He simply snatches a snipet of a verse, listing it with other verses from another book and all without references or context. This is misleading. The following is the verse in question and its immediate context:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
The poster appears to be concerned with the word “might” thinking it refers to that which is either conditional or simply a possibility. Nothing could be further from the truth unless, of course, the poster believes there is a measure of doubt in verse 25. Does he doubt that Christ died to hagiazo - to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin His church (His elect)? The word “might” indicates that the stated action – “sanctify and cleanse” will happen (or has happened) as a result of another stated action – “Christ….gave himself for it”.
quote:
This is how English works. If "there is nothing man can do", the above sentences would contain no "if"'s, and would not be conditional. There’s something else that “works” also – using the entire verse and its context which unfortunately the poster didn’t do. Had he done so or had he investigated the Greek grammar for the word “might”, perhaps he would have understood that these verses are not teaching some condition man must meet for God to save him.
He also would have learned that Eph 5:26 should not be thought of as a possible result. Actually, a simply investigation of Scripture using “might” would have sufficed to show that “might” is used to indicate what “will or has happened”.
So, we see all the verses of 1John and Ephesians 5 continue to agree with the rest of Scripture that only the Lord Jesus Christ is able to pay for sins. And, once again, Scripture contradicts the RC theory of some purgatorial state which is able to expiate sin.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 9/17/2008 6:57:52 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1463
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
And, once again, Scripture contradicts the RC theory of some purgatorial state which is able to expiate sin. ...and thankfully for Catholics everywhere, this is not what is going on in purgatory...nobody is being punished in purgatory, nor is purgatory a place for the expiation of sin to God.
What is going on in purgatory is what is described in 1 Cor 3 - the testing of works, and the results of that testing. Also referenced in Matt 16:27; Romans 2:6; Rev 2:23; Rev 14:12; Rev 20:12-13; Rev 22:12. Purgatory is the place where the temporal punishments of sin must be served and allowed to play out. The dirty, stained soul is not going to get into heaven; a purified cleansed mended and untarnished one is.
Purgatory serves as the place for the completion of sanctification, which is apart from the justification which you describe that all Christians receive via Baptism and being sealed to Christ and the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
...since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith...
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 9/18/2008 3:41:16 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5484
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quote:
and thankfully for Catholics everywhere, this is not what is going on in purgatory...nobody is being punished in purgatory, nor is purgatory a place for the expiation of sin to God.
As often happens even RC members themselves are confused about their church's doctrines. Above the poster says "nobody is being punished in purgatory" nor does "expiation of sin" take place. But, then in the next paragraph he says: "Purgatory is the place where the temporal punishments of sin must be served and allowed to play out."
Contrary to the opinion of the poster, the RC evidence is overwhelming that purgatory is indeed a place of torture and the expiation of sin.
"We ask if you have believed and now believe that there is a Purgatory to which depart the souls of those dying in grace who have not yet made complete satisfaction for their sins. Also, if you have believed and now believe that they will be tortured by fire...." Clement VI
The following are the so-called scriptural "proofs" of purgatory the poster has presented.
The first "proof" offered is 1 Cor 3 which the poster claims means: "the testing of works, and the results of that testing". Unfortunately, for the poster the context is clear and it totally contradicts his notions. Paul is speaking about preaching the Gospel and the "work" is the result of said preaching. IOW, did the preaching result in saving souls or not. Nothing whatsoever about going to any "place".
My goodness, RC is so bereft of scriptural support it sees the word "fire" and pounces on it. What the verses are actually saying is not of the slightest importance or interest to them.
The next "proof" offered is Mat 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. This is laughable. There is not the slightest suggestion of a "purgatory". It is beyond obvious that the Lord is speaking here of the last day when He comes in His glory.
The context indicates Christ is speaking about the loss of one's soul which would, in fact, negate any possibility of a "purgatory" since a "lost" soul would not go to a "purgatory" according to RC. Not to mention this is ushering in eternity which also would negate a "purgatory" since RC teaches all souls are freed from purgatory at that time.
The next "proof" offered is Rom 2:6
"Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" Again, if only the poster would read the context. Then, it would be obvious Paul is speaking about heaven and hell - not a "purgatory". We know this because he says in vs 12 "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law.."
The next verses offered as "proof" are the Revelation ones; and, as can be expected from any RC "proof" they have not one wit to do with a "purgatory".
Instead these verses speak of obeying the commandments of God(Rev 14:12). Another speaks of the end of the world when Christ comes in judgment(Rev 20:12; 22:12). Again, these would completely negate the theory of "purgatory" since RC teaches "purgatory" would cease to exist when eternity begins.
Apparently, the poster was not attempting to "prove" purgatory but instead prove how NOT to read Scripture.
I have a Revelation verse of my own which is appropriate.
"......If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book"
quote:
The dirty, stained soul is not going to get into heaven; a purified cleansed mended and untarnished one is. Contrary to RC opinion, man cannot mend and cleanse his own "dirty, stained soul". It is absurd to think he can. This purification can only be accomplished by the sovereign mercy of God - if the Lord Jesus Christ died for your sins. And, if He has, your soul is as white as snow - your sins have been removed as far as the east is from the west(Ps 103:12).
"...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 9/18/2008 10:33:11 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1463
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
As often happens even RC members themselves are confused about their church's doctrines. Above the poster says "nobody is being punished in purgatory" nor does "expiation of sin" take place. But, then in the next paragraph he says: "Purgatory is the place where the temporal punishments of sin must be served and allowed to play out."
If I throw a baseball through my neighbor's window, I then go and knock on my neighbors door and ask forgiveness. The neighbor (in my neighborhood, at least) wold look at me, shrug his shoulders and say "Don't worry about it DH...no big deal".
So - I am forgiven the breaking of the window.
However, the window remains broken. And for justice to be served, I am responsible for trying to make whole what I have severed - namely the pane of glass.
Now, I could try to will the broken glass back together into the whole state that it was in before. Or, I could get my duct tape and try to tape together what I could. However, the neighbor isn't going to be very happy with a bunch duct-taped broken glass where a nice clear window pane used to be.
Or, I could call the glass company and have the pane replaced.
The act of calling the glass company and handing him $100.00 out of my pocket is a "temporal punishment". I am not appeasing or expiating the transgression; the neighbor has already forgiven me. But I am attempting to make my neighbor whole to the extent of my resources and abilities. I am attempting to mend the relationship with my neighbor that I damaged by my ball-throwing skills (or lack thereof).
There are numerous passages (I listed several) whereby we are 'judged according to our works". I believe that his is what Scripture is talking about, since we know that forgiveness from God is not merited or earned, but is made available by the work of Jesus, who obtained this forgiveness for us. When Scriptures talks about "judged by works", I believe it is referring to this aspect of "temporal punishments" as well as the positive aspects (acting in charity and peace with our fellow humans) of human behavior reflecting that faith in Jesus.
"Temporal punishments" is simply what this is called. There is not a better name for the temporal result of our sin choices.
quote:
"......If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book" I have yet to have any locusts show up, or have boils erupt, so apparently I can't be adding too much...
Certainly, there is a loss for those who excise and abridge the word and instructions of God, dismissing those practices with which they have a disagreement, or are unable to discern or render from their personal reading of Scriptures.
_____________________________
...since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith...
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 9/20/2008 3:59:23 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5484
Status: offline
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quote:
I am not appeasing or expiating the transgression; Your church says differently than you.
"....or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions."
"For unrepented venial faults for the payment of temporal punishment due to sin at time of death,"
"Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames,"
"the pope does not absolve the soul in purgatory from the punishment due his sin,"
So, what do we have?...payment, punishment and expiation for their own unrepented sins. Adding "temporal" as if it were some magic fix-all doesn't change those facts.
quote:
quote:
"......If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book"
I have yet to have any locusts show up, or have boils erupt, so apparently I can't be adding too much... Seems God doesn't have locusts in mind...more like "...God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 9/21/2008 3:41:30 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 1463
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
So, what do we have?...payment, punishment and expiation for their own unrepented sins. Adding "temporal" as if it were some magic fix-all doesn't change those facts. There is a reality that actions carry consequences - for the good and for the bad. Jesus's death on the cross does not cause the glass in the window pane to re-assemble itself upon receipt of forgiveness from God...
...Having said that, just who here is the one really believing in "magic fixes"...?
You seem to me to be professing a faith where consequences of the choice and action of sin may be ignored, and the work of Jesus on the cross is nothing but a "get out of jail free" card in a Monopoly game. In my opinion, a person has to ignore and dismiss a lot of Scriptures to come to that conclusion.
quote:
Seems God doesn't have locusts in mind...more like "...God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." An excursion to the edge of the Terms of Service of this website. Thanks for not disappointing me with your response.
Back to the land of "blocked" you go...
_____________________________
...since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith...
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 9/23/2008 4:05:34 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5484
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
So, what do we have?...payment, punishment and expiation for their own unrepented sins. Adding "temporal" as if it were some magic fix-all doesn't change those facts. There is a reality that actions carry consequences - for the good and for the bad. Jesus's death on the cross does not cause the glass in the window pane to re-assemble itself upon receipt of forgiveness from God... Why would you consider that you had repented of sin if you never bothered to rectify your actions? No, had you truly repented with a godly repentance it would have been a gift of God. A result of the greatest gift - salvation.
quote:
...Having said that, just who here is the one really believing in "magic fixes"...?
You seem to me to be professing a faith where consequences of the choice and action of sin may be ignored, and the work of Jesus on the cross is nothing but a "get out of jail free" card in a Monopoly game. Were you more familiar with Scripture you'd know that repentance is an evidence of salvation. And true repentance never ignores the consequences of sin or treats sin lightly. But never is that repentance a cause of salvation nor is our "suffering" a payment for sin. The Bible knows of only ONE payment for sin.
And what of the work of Jesus on the cross? To you it is insufficient and non-efficacious since you must add to His work.
quote:
In my opinion, a person has to ignore and dismiss a lot of Scriptures to come to that conclusion. Obviously, it's just your opinion since you've never offered any biblical support for this "temporal punishment" teaching of your church.
quote:
Seems God doesn't have locusts in mind...more like "...God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." An excursion to the edge of the Terms of Service of this website. For what?...quoting the appropriate passage from Scripture? You mocking suggested the "plagues" of God were locusts and boils. Instead, I posted the "plague" God had in mind in Rev 22.
quote:
Thanks for not disappointing me with your response. It's unfortunate biblical passages seems to disappoint you.
quote:
Back to the land of "blocked" you go... Always the best course of action when one finds oneself on the losing side of an issue.
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 9/3/2009 8:08:05 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 3512
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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Time has run out on this last Supreme Pontiff deal;
"In order to allow the fruits of renewed holiness to grow from this blessed commemoration, the Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI has generously decreed that the gift of a Plenary Indulgence be granted according to the following conditions:
Each and every member of the Christian faithful who, truly repentant, is purified through sacramental confession, restored through the Most Holy Eucharist and offers prayers for the intentions of the Supreme Pontiff, will be able to gain a Plenary Indulgence daily, which may also be applied, by way of suffrage, to the souls of the faithful in Purgatory:
A) If, during the year running from 8 December 2007 until the end of 8 December 2008, they devoutly visit the following places, preferably in this order - 1) the parish baptismal font used for the Baptism of Bernadette; 2) the house of the Soubirous family called the "cachot"; 3) the Grotto of Massabielle; 4) the chapel of the hospice where Bernadette made her First Communion - and pause to reflect for an appropriate length of time at each of these Jubilee sites, concluding with the Lord's Prayer, some legitimate form of the Profession of Faith, and the Jubilee prayer or some other Marian invocation.
B) If, from the Feast of the Presentation of our Lord on 2 February 2008 until the end of the Memorial of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Lourdes on 11 February 2008, which is also the 150th Anniversary of the Apparition, they devoutly visit a blessed image of the Holy Virgin Mary of Lourdes in any church, chapel, grotto or other suitable place in which it is solemnly displayed, and in the presence of that image perform some pious act of Marian devotion, or at least pause to reflect for an appropriate length of time, concluding with the Lord's Prayer, some legitimate form of the Profession of Faith, and the Jubilee prayer or some other Marian invocation.
C) The elderly, sick, and all those unable to leave home for a just cause, if they consciously reject all sin and have the intention to fulfil the above-mentioned conditions as soon as possible, are likewise able to obtain - at home or wherever they may be - a Plenary Indulgence, if, between the days of 2 and 11 February 2008, they complete a "spiritual visit" (to the aforementioned places) in the desire of their heart, recite the prayers indicated above, and trustingly offer the pains and discomforts of their own lives to God through Mary.
In order that the Christian faithful may partake more readily of these heavenly gifts, priests who have received approval to hear confessions by the competent ecclesiastical authorities should welcome them with a willing and generous spirit and solemnly lead the recitation of public prayers to the Immaculate Virgin Mother of God."
Source;
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/tribunals/apost_penit/documents/rc_trib_appen_doc_20071121_decreto-lourdes_en.html
KJB
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 10/22/2009 10:20:54 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 1727
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
And what of the work of Jesus on the cross? To you it is insufficient and non-efficacious since you must add to His work.
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church. Col 1:24
quote:
The Bible knows of only ONE payment for sin.
Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny. Mt 5:25-26
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 10/22/2009 11:01:50 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/14/2010 7:46:18 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 1727
Joined: 9/10/2009
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The doctrine of purgatory is Biblical, otherwise, why do we read,
"his sins will come to light for the Day will disclose it. He will be saved, but only as through fire"
and again
"let me go then to my brothers"
But how could a hell-bound man--Lazarus--in agony or punishment pray for his brothers!
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 1/14/2010 4:32:25 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/31/2010 10:39:51 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 1727
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: offline
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The doctrine of purgatory must be true, because it is so well proven from Scripture. For instance, Rev 20:12-15 shows how Hades is only thrown into hell at the end. So hades can't be hell. It has to be purgatory, just as the Biblical Church has always prayed for the dead (as Paul prayed for Onesiphorus (2 Tim 1), and as the Jews did (2 Mac 12:46).
Please see my post the early church here:
http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=4732212
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 1/31/2010 10:51:48 AM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 3/15/2010 10:43:40 AM
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patricius79
Posts: 1727
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: offline
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1 Corinthians 3:15 f it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
St. Augustine wrote:
"By the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided . . . For the whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers . . . If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death.
(Sermons: 172, 2. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers [FEF], vol. 3, 29-30)
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/22/2010 10:39:29 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 1727
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: offline
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As a Christian, I believe that everything whether natural or supernatural is purely the grace of Jesus Christ, including suffering, through which we (Romans 6:5, 8:13, 17) and others are saved, according to Paul (2 Cor 1:6, 2 Tim 2:10, Col 1:24).
Purgatory also is a grace. I believe that just as we are purified by the Holy Spirit and by fire (Mt 3:11, 1 Pt 4:12-13) in this life, so likewise some must pass through fire at the judgement (1 Cor 3:13-15, Lk 12:46, 47, 48, 49)
Our God is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29), and therefore nothing at all impure which clings to us (Heb 12:1)--whether deadly or not (1 Jn 5:16-17)--can approach him (Rev 21:27, Heb 12:14)
I believe that the Rich Man is in hades (Lk 16:23)--which is purgatory--because he is in agony (Lk 16:23), yet he prays for his brothers (Lk 16:27), even after Abraham calls him "child" (Lk 16:25), yet rebuffs him.
I also see references to purgatory or something similar in Mt 5:25-26, 1 Pt 3:18, 19, Mt 12:32, etc.
The Trinitarian fathers--who testify to what is passed on not explicitly in Scripture, but orally (2 Thes 2:15, 1 Cor 11:2, 16, 23, 34), such as the N.T. Canon--prayed for the dead and to my knowledge none argued against this practice.
They attest this doctrine even in the 100s and 200s, and then even more in the 300s and 400s, when the Cyrils, Augustine, Gregory Nyssen, Chrysostom, etc, testify explicitly.
(This doctrine developed--Lk 2:52--slowly, just like the dogma of the N.T. Canon, the Trinity (our central belief!), Original Sin, etc)
Here are some early samples:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp
I think this doctrine is not more explicit in Scripture partly because the N.T. Christians were living under such trying and humilating circumstances that their purgatory was more in this life.
I see that this patristic (1 Cor 4:15) doctrine is beautiful and gracious, since it increases our supernatural perspective of life and assists us in charity, as we pray for those in hades, and strive to avoid such a place through love through which we are begotten by God (1 Jn 4:7), .
It also reminds us that we are primarily spiritual beings, and that the soul can be separated from the body (Mt 10:28, Jn 6:49-50, 58, 1 Pt 3:18, 19)
I believe it because the historic Church--which is one with Jesus (Acts 9:4), the Pillar and Ground of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15)--has always believed it with the other Catholic distinctives.
Peace to all who boast in the Cross of Jesus Christ (Gal 6:14, 1 Cor 1:18, 23), the only Son of God (Jn 3:16),
pat
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/23/2010 8:47:16 AM
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disturbo
Posts: 212
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline
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1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
< Message edited by disturbo -- 5/24/2010 7:52:26 AM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/23/2010 12:50:49 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 1727
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: offline
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Amen, brother.
pat
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 5/23/2010 1:58:01 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2219
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: disturbo
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
quote:
Paul is simply using the terms that are familiar with the people of the time. Fire was the tool used to purify metals and to get rid of that which was unwanted, the dross. So too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both purify and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards. The theme of fire used as purification is also found in 2 Pet. 3:10-13. But this is not talking about becoming saved or staying saved.
1 Cor. 3:15 does not teach purgatory as a place we go to in order to have some of our sins cleansed from us. It teaches that even though the person is justified by faith and cannot face damnation, his works will, however, be judged on "that day." Those works which are good will survive the fires of judgment the way gold, silver, and precious stones can survive fire. But false works will be consumed the way fire consumes wood, hay, and straw. What is left has no bearing on whether or not we are saved. It has to do with rewards in heaven.
Paul goes on to say in 1 Cor. 4:5, "Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of mens hearts; and then each mans praise will come to him from God."
Note also, 1 Pet. 1:6-7, "In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."
2 Pet. 3:10-13, "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."
LINK
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rawr.ben
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