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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/18/2010 3:30:02 PM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: heremainsfaithful
I will say that these preachers/ministries that are always asking for more money and are lying to people to get their funds by promising "If you send me a check you'll get rich" are a shame. And every church should be above board and transparent about how money is spent. I also think that people should give as God leads them. I just have a hard time believing that the reason that 80% of church members don't give regularly is because God told all of them they are free not to.
Amen! Many use their disagreement with tithing as a reason to give nothing. That is wrong.
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/18/2010 3:30:59 PM
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Eutychus
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I sincerely believe that God calls two kinds of pastors, full-time and bi-vocational. I have had pastors in both situations and I believe they served as God wanted them to.
Paul in certain settings earned his living by working on the side, but he clearly wrote that he had a full right to expect payment. He never said that one kind of pastor was the only kind God approves.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/18/2010 3:31:32 PM
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vvmyrss
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It's not that we are free not to give, it's that we are free from the curse of the law. I give faithfully but I do not go by the 10% tithe. A lot of times it is more, sometimes less. I give to be obedient and not to get something back, which is usually preached from the pulpit. You can write all the tithes checks you want, but if you are not living a life in obedience to God, it's not going to do a lick of good.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/18/2010 3:33:54 PM
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Eutychus
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For Anyone:
What are your thoughts on Paul's instructions from 1 Corinthians below?
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
-1 Corinthians 16:1-2
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2010 8:49:06 AM
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gmcspice
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quote:
It's not that we are free not to give, it's that we are free from the curse of the law. I give faithfully but I do not go by the 10% tithe. A lot of times it is more, sometimes less. I give to be obedient and not to get something back, which is usually preached from the pulpit. You can write all the tithes checks you want, but if you are not living a life in obedience to God, it's not going to do a lick of good.
Amen!
For me, I normally give about 20 to 30 dollars a week. But, it was brought to my attention by the Lord and my fellow choir members that we needed new microphones. Well, God blessed me with a sizable amount of money, and he laid it on my heart to give for this cause. He has always blessed me in some kind of way for being a cheerful AND obedient giver, so I gave the amount it was needed to buy 4 new microphones.
I have found that what Euty says is very true also. Whether it is 10% or not, we should still give out of the goodness of our hearts, and first and always give to what and who Gods tells us to.
When my dad was alive, I used the money God blessed me with to take care of him and gave to the church when I could and God always made sure we had plenty. I trust God and will follow what he lays on my heart to give.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2010 4:08:54 PM
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Eutychus
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Twice in the NT have I noticed someone being commended for their giving. The first was given by Jesus about the widow who gave all that she had out of her poverty. The second was by Paul leading up to the often misapplied "cheerful giver" verse.
The commendation is in groundwork for that is found in 2 Corinthians 8:1-4 :
Now, brethren, we wish to make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the churches of Macedonia, that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality. For I testify that according to their ability, and beyond their ability, they gave of their own accord, begging us with much urging for the favor of participation in the support of the saints
These were people unconcerned that they didn't have any money to spare in worldly "practical" eyes. They gave more than they should have and strongly begged to give it.
Paul shared that with the Corinthians to SHAME them for not being willing to give out of their abundance money they had PROMISED to give but hadn't.
And the giving discussed here was not to meet needs in the local church. This was beyond those needs for believers in a foreign land.
So, if we want to make as our standard the "cheerful giver" then our position is to give sacrificially and beyond our means. And if this is what is meant by cheerful giving, as evidenced by the widow and the Macedonians, then I heartily support it because it is biblical and makes a mere 10% look pretty lame.
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2010 8:25:05 PM
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lilyofthefield
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That reminds me of the $14.64 that was given by the homeless in Baltimore for the victims in Haiti. Beautiful.
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Psalm 113:9
He settles the barren woman in her home as a happy mother of children. Praise the LORD.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 7:09:12 AM
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luispinzon
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The tithe is a commandment for all the people in the church. Malachi 3:10-11.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 8:43:06 AM
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bolt.
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I hadn't realized there was a controversy on the dating of Malachi.
Could you tell us which scholars believe it to be a document from after the formation of the Church, and what evidence they are presenting?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 8:51:14 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
I hadn't realized there was a controversy on the dating of Malachi.
Could you tell us which scholars believe it to be a document from after the formation of the Church, and what evidence they are presenting?
In your opinion, is the OT just an historical document with no practical application or relevance for believers today?
If not, what besides the often misused "cheerful giver" passage is your biblical guideline?
Thanks,
Euty
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 9:07:37 AM
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bolt.
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No. The Hebrew Bible has a critical and unshakable role as the revelation of God to His people. It is worthy of all understanding and true application and has much to speak to us as Christians. There is a distinction between a command for a place and time and a command for all ages, and such things are very much open to interpretation and debate
The idea that, "The Old Testament says so, so we must obey it in every particular." Is terribly under-formed and must be questioned and enriched. The prophets were speaking to their own place, time and people, not ours. If we understand ourselves to be within the scope of Malachi, that is a theological step that must be clarified, not assumed.
The instructions as to being a cheerful giver are in Corinthians, a letter written by an apostle after the formation of the Church -- written to a specific Church (in their own time and place). It too must be understood and applied well, but understanding ourselves to be within the scope of that document as it pertains to those instructions is a much more straightforward theological process than to attempt to do so in Malachi.
Theologically, I do not understand the Church to be accountable to the commands of God to Israel, though I do find such commands informative as to the nature, character and expectations of God and His reign in my life and community.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 9:13:05 AM
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Eutychus
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Not sure I understand completely:
Do you think there is anything, anywhere, penned by any human author that gives any guidance to believers today on stewardship and giving OR is the entire Bible just a handy reference to specific answers given to a specific place, time, and people?
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/8/2010 9:29:42 AM
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bolt.
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Every part of the Bible was written in a context (a specific place, time, and people, a human author and an intention). It is impossible to rightly apply what God has said without understanding that context as a critical element of interpretation. Understanding the context often makes our application of the authoritative Word of God more specific and more powerful.
Every Scripture passage that mentions stewardship and generosity gives guidance to believers today on those matters, as do many passages that do not specifically mention giving or generosity.
They just give that 'guidance' in a way that is not automatically and presumptively:
Prophet told nation of Israel = God tells me.
Apostle told 1st century congregation = God tells me.
And I find the word 'guidance' too light. Once we do understand how Biblical passages apply to our lives, that is a calling and an obligation, not a guideline.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/10/2010 7:04:09 PM
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prophet
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Text - Context = Pre text 
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2010 12:19:16 AM
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bolt.
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or "Proof text"
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2010 7:04:20 PM
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bolt.
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quote:
What do you call it when you start out to disprove something and the evidence leads you to change your POV?
Learning!
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Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
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>>audio link<<
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/15/2010 2:36:27 AM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
quote:
What do you call it when you start out to disprove something and the evidence leads you to change your POV?
Learning!
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 10:19:55 AM
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poetessfree
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
I hadn't realized there was a controversy on the dating of Malachi.
Could you tell us which scholars believe it to be a document from after the formation of the Church, and what evidence they are presenting?
In your opinion, is the OT just an historical document with no practical application or relevance for believers today?
If not, what besides the often misused "cheerful giver" passage is your biblical guideline?
Thanks,
Euty
I am reminded of Colossians 2 which speaks on this wise:
6 And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him. 7 Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness. 8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers[a] of this world, rather than from Christ. 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.[c] 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed[d] the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross. 16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality. 18 Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels,[e] saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud, 19 and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it. 20 You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the spiritual powers of this world. So why do you keep on following the rules of the world, such as, 21 “Don’t handle! Don’t taste! Don’t touch!”? 22 Such rules are mere human teachings about things that deteriorate as we use them. 23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.
We speak on being a cheerful giver because that is what Scripture says to those of us who are non-Jewish in the New Covenant established by Jesus Christ the Messiah. Gentiles, which are the majority of us living in America, are a part of the New Testament as spoken in Scripture. The Old Testament spoke of Jesus to come and was written for God’s chosen people those whose fathers are Abraham, Isaac and Israel but also for us Gentiles to learn from their triumphs and mistakes. However, some Scripture were pointing to Gentiles in the far future--Prophet Isaiah spoke in 65-1: “I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.” This again spoke of Gentiles to come. Isa- “And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.” There are those who misquote Malachi when clearly the author was speaking to God’s chosen not to Gentiles. Those Gentiles who desire to follow Jewish tradition of tithing should follow all of Jewish tradition not just tithing. Also they should tithe to Levites. Nowhere in Scripture is it written to tithe to pastors/ministers.
True giving for the Gentiles in the New Covenant is written in the Holy Word, just read it. Luke 6-“Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.” 1 Cor 16-Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.” In other words, as God has blessed him/her, so should they be a blessing. That doesn’t mean that when you have been laid off from your job, that you are forced to give a 10% of whatever money is given to you by family, your home state or friends. That money is to help you pay for your household and God has blessed you through other givers so that when you begin to get above water, you can be a blessing back. This is understood and let those who have an ear, hear and understand. Jesus came and took away all yokes and bondages. God would never, ever want anyone to give under pressure, coercion or fear from homes being under a curse. That is not the truth. That is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Lord of Hosts of Whom I serve. I am a Gentile grafted in, and made a partaker of His dispensation of Grace through His glorious and Holy Son Jesus the Christ. I don’t pretend to be Jewish as some do. I know who I am and so does God. Children, free yourself from guilt. God didn’t give guilt to you, man did. Do not give to a church and then not have any money left to pay your bills. Does that make any sense? We must use wisdom. God understands. He is not what man told you HE is. Read His Word. Listen to His voice speak to you. Sometimes HE will insistently put an amount on your heart. Obey His voice. But don’t do what some pastor is telling you unless God has placed it on your heart as well. Give what God has blessed you with: to the churches who truly help, to the poor, to the homeless, to the sick, to the destitute, to the naked, to the hungry and those who thirst, to those in prison for then truly you would have given to Jesus as He has said.
_____________________________
"cute and cuddly boys" skipper
"Doctrine of Christ everywhere teaches self-denial and mortification of worldliness and sin...never makes the death of Christ a cloak to cover sin, but speaks of it as an instrument that destroys it". John Flavel
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 10:22:46 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9201
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From: Dothan, AL
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I honestly tried to read that post but the bright bold letters hurts my eyes. It's as bad as trying to read all caps. I'll just assume it's a good sentiment worthy of consideration.
Thanks,
Euty
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2010 10:26:36 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9201
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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Even without the bolding, the post is still hard on my eyes - blue on a cyan background on the FCN portal has too little contrast and red against blue is hard to read.
Did you know that the human eye cannot focus on red and blue at the same time? It's true. The eyes sort of jiggle back and forth when they are next to each other.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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