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ORIGINAL: Saved34

Deborah being a judge in Israel has absolutely no baring on the New Testament ekklēsía. Christ said I WILL build MY Church. It was at the time a yet future thing. The Church is not set up like Israel, it has it's own governments and offices. The Holy Spirit penned down the words the great Apostle gave concerning women having authority in the Church. More than once he said let the woman keep silent in the Churches, I suffer not a woman to teach, let them learn in quiet. You don't have to be a greek scholar to understand precise language. This was to be a guideline in the Churches, and not just some isolated problem in one Church.

1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

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ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA

Greetings Benelchi,

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who want to impose rules and regulations on women that God NEVER INTENDED just as much as he contradicts the imaginations of Men and Women who will not recognize any difference between the roles of men and women given in Scripture.

I am searching for evidence that demonstrates a truth, or as the phrase says I believe that "the proof is in the pudding".

If what you say is correct do you have any examples that you care to share that may benefit my research?

Below is the request I made in post number 6163:

I am curious if anyone knows of a church that is bearing much fruit in the body of Christ whose leader of the flock and teaching Pastor is a woman.

If you do would you be so kind as to provide information or possibly a link to the churches website so that I may gather information?

I am prayerfully considering writing a research thesis on this subject. Thank you.

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There was nothing in Hebrews 11 that implied that Barak was a judge.

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many who are mentioned in the list given in Hebrews 11 WERE NOT JUDGES! Here is the whole list given in Hebtrews 11 for reference.

Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets.

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This verse indicates that Deborah's heart went out to those who were involved in the battle, not those who were "ruling Israel."

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Again the interpretation you offered here is a gross misrepresentation of Scripture.

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First, Barak was not regarded as a "prince" in this verse. This verse indicates that the "princes of Issachar" were with Deborah and Barak and Issachar were also with Deborah.

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who want to impose rules and regulations on women that God NEVER INTENDED

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Deborah being a judge in Israel has absolutely no baring [bearing]on the New Testament ekklēsía.

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Again the interpretation you offered here is a gross misrepresentation of Scripture.

It is you who is doing all the misinterpretation and reinterpretation. Anyone who will take the Authorized Version and read it for themselves will agree that I have presented exactly what the Scripture states. It does shoot holes into your theory, therefore you have to come up with some novel interpretations.

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Do you want only churches that have a "head" pastor that is a woman, or any teaching pastor that leads a group in the church?

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What about churches that call women leaders "ministry leaders" but give them the same duties as the male "pastors"?

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Do you make a distinction between those churches where the teaching pastor is a member of the elder board, serves as the only elder, or simply has the duties of a lead teacher with no responsibilities as a elder.

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What about very traditional churches that "do not let women teach men", but let women teach Jr. High boys (who would have been considered men by Paul when he wrote his letters).

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Do you want to look only at churches present today, or those that existed in History i.e. there are many examples of churches that bore fruit with women pastors in past history (especially in the 1700-1800's).

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Is changing the name of the position for women sufficient to avoid the "sin" of a woman pastor?

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ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA

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Do you want only churches that have a "head" pastor that is a woman, or any teaching pastor that leads a group in the church?

To clarify for my study I am looking for churches whose Sr. Pastor or primary teaching Pastor is a woman.

I'd like to thank those who have contacted me with some examples. Unfortunately the ones which I have received are leaders at Word of Faith churches. Any church which teaches doctrines contrary to the word of God do not qualify for my study, though I do appreciate those who have taken the time to reply to my request.

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What about churches that call women leaders "ministry leaders" but give them the same duties as the male "pastors"?

If one of these duties includes teaching men from the pulpit then yes, these churches would fit the qualifications of my study nicely.

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Do you make a distinction between those churches where the teaching pastor is a member of the elder board, serves as the only elder, or simply has the duties of a lead teacher with no responsibilities as a elder.

Same reply as provided above.

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What about very traditional churches that "do not let women teach men", but let women teach Jr. High boys (who would have been considered men by Paul when he wrote his letters).

See above.

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Do you want to look only at churches present today, or those that existed in History i.e. there are many examples of churches that bore fruit with women pastors in past history (especially in the 1700-1800's).

If they were used for His glory 300 years ago but not presently, what happened?

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Is changing the name of the position for women sufficient to avoid the "sin" of a woman pastor?

In the end we will all be known by our fruits, not by what self professed moniker we choose to place upon ourselves.

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ORIGINAL: HomeSpunLady

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ORIGINAL: Crushmaster

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ORIGINAL: Ezra

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I suspect God allows women to step into this kind a role because there are no men to step in where He is leading them for whatever reason.

The men would be there to step in if the women (and men) were praying for a man and not a woman. We should never discount the impact of feminism on evangelical churches.

Agreed. God does "allow" it, yes - but He also allows us to hold wrong beliefs, sin, etc. God will never, ever, ever call a woman to preach.

God has very clear lines between the roles of men and women in all walks of life, in His Church and beyond. It is dangerous and mortally wrong to cross them. As it is to do anything against Him.

Just my thoughts.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

Really? Never say never. I respectfully disagree with you.

What about prophesy? What about the many examples of women prophesying in scripture? And by prophesy I mean being the mouth-piece of God. To me that is same as preaching.

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ORIGINAL: rawr.ben

Goduseswomen (with a name like that, and the posts you have made thus far, one might think you have an agenda in these forums . . . ),

Nobody that you listed had an ultimate spiritual authority over men. They were all head accountable by a male, be it a high priest or the leader and deacons of a congregation, etc.

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ORIGINAL: Goduseswomen

After doing some research on this subject, I found out what that really means. In the early days Paul was dealing with a problem in the church. He meant it's a shame for them TO TALK IN THE CHURCH service while the service was going on.

And the Timothy one was just dealing witth more of home a problem.

If God didn't use women then there would be no stories of Deborah Ruth, Ester. Paul Commanded Phoebe and I believe Prsicla helped him too.




a. DEBORAH - Judges 4:4-5. Deborah was a Judge for both civil and criminal cases. The children of Israel came to her for judgment. She was the chief ruler of Israel for 40 years, giving orders to the Generals and all the army. She did the work of an evangelist, prophetess, Judge, and a preacher. God gave her authority over the mighty (Judges 5:13).

b. MIRIAM - Exodus 15:20; Numbers 12:1; Micah 6:4. She was a Prophetess and a Song Leader in Israel.

c. HULDAH - 2 Kings 22:14. Five men went to Sister Huldah and communed with her. She spoke to a congregation of men concerning the book of the Law. A female preached to a man's congregation, and her message was taken to the nation and produced a revival.

d. MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ'S MOTHER - Isaiah 8:3. She was a prophetess.

8. God called and used women preachers in the New Testament.

a. The first message of the Resurrection of Christ was spoken by women to a group of men.

b. Anna - Luke 2:36-38. She must have prophesied in church, because she did not depart from the temple.

c. Phillip had 4 daughters who prophesied. Acts 21:9.

d. Priscilla assisted Paul in his revival meeting and even taught Apollos in the way of the Lord more perfectly.

e. Phebe - Romans 16:1-2. Paul commended Phebe to the Church at Rome and requested that they assist her in her business. She was one of Paul's assistants in the work of the Lord and delivered the Book of Romans to the people from the hand of Paul.



1 Cor. 14: 34-35 does not say anything about women preachers. If Paul intended this verse as a general rule to bar all women from speaking in church, then they cannot teach Sunday School, testify, pray, prophesy, sing, or even get saved, and this would contradict the rest of the Bible (Acts 2:4; Acts 2:16-18).

Paul was rather dealing with a particular problem in the church. Women were not educated as were the men in that day; therefore the women would talk back and forth to their husbands in church and ask questions concerning the sermon. Paul said, "If they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." If they want to talk things over let them wait until they get home. This rule is still good for the church today, where people are talking and causing confusion in the church service. They should not speak in church. (Not in the back of the church either before or after services.)


11. 1 Timothy 2:12 is not a blanket rule for all women of all churches. If it were, then the women could not speak at all, for the same verse that tells them not to teach also tells them to be silent.

If all women had to keep silent in church, then that would be promoting disobedience to God, for they could not prophesy, pray, testify, sing, exhort, do personal work, or even get saved.

Whenever an interpretation to a verse contradicts the rest of the teaching of the Bible, we know this interpretation is incorrect, for the Holy Spirit will never contradict His own Word.

This is the chief verse that is used to oppose women preaching and yet it says nothing about preaching, nor does it say anything about a public worship or church service. But, on the contrary, this verse is giving instructions to wives as to how they were to conduct themselves in regard to their husband. Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:35, "And if they will LEARN anything, let them ask their husbands at home." Now he states in 1 Tim. 2:12 that the woman should learn in silence, and should not usurp authority over the man. Paul is dealing with more of a home problem than a church problem.

Hope this clears up some stuff for some people

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ORIGINAL: benelchi

Let's just address this one first. Most biblical Greek scholars, including those who hold very traditional views about woman's roles acknowledge that this is a very bad translation of the verb 'αὐθεντεῖν/to have authority'. It is never translated this way in any language in any version of Scripture prior to the 1900's and biblical Greek scholars recognize that the translation of this verb does present some very serious hermetical challenges; some of which I have addressed here.. Most believe the KJV's 'to usurp authority' to be a far better translation of this verse (regardless of what version of the bible they primarily use).

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Part of the problem with that verse is that greek uses the same w
word for "wives" and women. There is also no clear way in the verse to determine if a posessive pronoun was intended, so you are left with just context to determine if the verse should read "women should likewise..." or "their wives likewise..."

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ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

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Part of the problem with that verse is that greek uses the same w
word for "wives" and women. There is also no clear way in the verse to determine if a posessive pronoun was intended, so you are left with just context to determine if the verse should read "women should likewise..." or "their wives likewise..."

Right. It's not clear. So in the passage about deacons' requirements, why is there a verse about the women, unless it's implied that they're female deacons?

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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
A problem with interpreting this to mean deaconesses might be that Romans 16 actually uses the word for Deacon, with reference to women. However, Paul uses it in reference to a servant, not as the office of Deacon, as in 1 Timothy 3 with regards to the men.

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ORIGINAL: GroupW

Part of the problem with that verse is that greek uses the same w
word for "wives" and women. There is also no clear way in the verse to determine if a posessive pronoun was intended, so you are left with just context to determine if the verse should read "women should likewise..." or "their wives likewise..."

Assuming I remember my studies correctly, both would be possible translations, hence some of the confusion.

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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric

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ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

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Part of the problem with that verse is that greek uses the same w
word for "wives" and women. There is also no clear way in the verse to determine if a posessive pronoun was intended, so you are left with just context to determine if the verse should read "women should likewise..." or "their wives likewise..."

Right. It's not clear. So in the passage about deacons' requirements, why is there a verse about the women, unless it's implied that they're female deacons?

A problem with interpreting this to mean deaconesses might be that Romans 16 actually uses the word for Deacon, with reference to women. However, Paul uses it in reference to a servant, not as the office of Deacon, as in 1 Timothy 3 with regards to the men. Immediately after the sentence about women, Paul makes reference to the wives of the deacons. While it is not clear as to what is being intimated by Paul's use of the words, I think the use of Deacon in other passages should make it more clear that Paul is more likely talking about the wives of the male deacons.

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ORIGINAL: benelchi

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ORIGINAL: GroupW

Part of the problem with that verse is that greek uses the same w
word for "wives" and women. There is also no clear way in the verse to determine if a posessive pronoun was intended, so you are left with just context to determine if the verse should read "women should likewise..." or "their wives likewise..."

Assuming I remember my studies correctly, both would be possible translations, hence some of the confusion.

This is sort of true; however, most of the time that a "wife" is indicated, it is done so by including a possessive i.e. "my woman", "his woman", their women", etc... In the case of 1 Tim. 3 there is no possessive and the correct translation is most likely "woman" and not "wife" as translated by the NASB, NRSV, and TNIV translators. The argument for "wives" comes from trying to tie the prior description of deacon that preceded this verse; however, there is not grammatical reason to make this connection.

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ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

Answer me this: If this is speaking of wives, why is there not a requirement for the wives of elders, if that is the more responsible position in the church?

THAT is my direct question, not really the "wives vs. women" grammar debate.

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ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

Answer me this: If this is speaking of wives, why is there not a requirement for the wives of elders, if that is the more responsible position in the church?

THAT is my direct question, not really the "wives vs. women" grammar debate.