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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/16/2010 9:04:14 AM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bamatina
Hebrews 6: 4-6 and Hebrews 10: 24-26
These verses greatly disturb me. It kinda sounds like if you make a mistake after accepting Christ as your Savior, you are doomed.
I know I accepted Christ as my savior over 10 years ago...and for a while, I lived a Christian life that had me feeling close to God. Then I slipped away from God and have sinned many times. I keep searching for answers...was I truly saved? how do I know? I continually pray for confidence in my salvation but it seems that God is silent. What am I doing wrong?
Many thanks to all who can give me a little guidance in where to go with my search.
quote:
These verses greatly disturb me. It kinda sounds like if you make a mistake after accepting Christ as your Savior, you are doomed.
Hebrews 6: 4-6
Where does it say that in Hebrews 6:4-6?
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/16/2010 9:15:00 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1647
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
In view of the impossibility of "being brought back to repentance", I see no other meaning for "falling away" but apostasy!
I agree, but why is it impossible for them to be brought back to repentance. It's impossible to bring them back to repentance because. . . why?
Because apostates have rejected the Atonement and disgraced the Son of God according to verse 6. The short parable in verses 7-8 shows the distinction between Believers who demonstrate their faith through good works and unbelievers who demonstrate their apostasy through wickedness.
Where does it say those whom the Hebrew writer are writing about have rejected the atonement?
1) The Greek word translated fallen away in the KJV is not the same word for apostasy.
2) Heb. 6:4-6 does not say they have rejected the atonement. It simply says they have fallen away.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/16/2010 10:13:30 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2384
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
In view of the impossibility of "being brought back to repentance", I see no other meaning for "falling away" but apostasy!
I agree, but why is it impossible for them to be brought back to repentance. It's impossible to bring them back to repentance because. . . why?
Because apostates have rejected the Atonement and disgraced the Son of God according to verse 6. The short parable in verses 7-8 shows the distinction between Believers who demonstrate their faith through good works and unbelievers who demonstrate their apostasy through wickedness.
Where does it say those whom the Hebrew writer are writing about have rejected the atonement?
1) The Greek word translated fallen away in the KJV is not the same word for apostasy.
2) Heb. 6:4-6 does not say they have rejected the atonement. It simply says they have fallen away.
Greetings
Moving away from the prophetic side of this... in the last days...Hbr 6:3
The definition as to how to restore them is given in the beginning verses and in reference to this comparison.....in verse 7-8 the one who falls away.... is as dry as one can get.
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Hbr 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.
Some portions of Hebrew are better to be understood if they are read backwards...
Therefore
If they..... shall fall away,… to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they.... crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
That is because there no longer remains ….“that sacrifice”… for their sin BECAUSE it is (Blaspheme of the HS) =
THAT….If they..... shall fall....
[it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, to renew them again unto repentance; because there no longer remains ….“that sacrifice”…
….(BECAUSE) they HAVE put [him] to an open shame …BY ….falling away
What the Paul is saying is we need to go back to the beginning to start over beginning in verse 1
And that is to “lay again the foundation of repentance”… from dead works, and of faith toward God,
(BECAUSE)…. they WHO were made partakers of the Holy Ghost who HAVE put [him] to an open shame BY ….falling away… should be able to recognize that truth.
Hbr 6:3 And this…. will we do, if God permit. (s)
There is no guarantee …
There is only this promise
Luke 12:48…..
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/16/2010 1:18:24 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1983
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From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: grahamcracker
Where does it say those whom the Hebrew writer are writing about have rejected the atonement?
1) The Greek word translated fallen away in the KJV is not the same word for apostasy.
2) Heb. 6:4-6 does not say they have rejected the atonement. It simply says they have fallen away.
It does say they have rejected the crucifixion of the Son of God, holding Him up to contempt (see Hebrews 6:6).
And the version I have says that it is impossible to renew them to repentance while they are recrucifying the Son of God. The implication, to me, is that if they should ever stop recrucifying the Son of God they would then be able to repent.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land -- not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. -- Amos 8:11 (ESV)
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/16/2010 1:40:11 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5589
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quote:
It does say they have rejected the crucifixion of the Son of God, holding Him up to contempt (see Hebrews 6:6). Exactly, gd! I understand the phrase "crucify again for themselves" to mean rejection of the Atonement. Hebrews 10:29 clarifies this rejection even further - "trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the Blood of the covenant a common thing, and and insulted the Spirit of grace". Wow, that's apostasy if ever there was such a thing!
BTW, Larry, the word parapipto is used only in Hebrews 6:6, so I think it most problematic to make conclusive statements about its meaning relative to apostasy.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/16/2010 5:04:07 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1647
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
BTW, Larry, the word parapipto is used only in Hebrews 6:6, so I think it most problematic to make conclusive statements about its meaning relative to apostasy.
Indeed! (I know that, having studied the word before. And that is part of my point.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/16/2010 11:04:56 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2384
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
It does say they have rejected the crucifixion of the Son of God, holding Him up to contempt (see Hebrews 6:6). Exactly, gd! I understand the phrase "crucify again for themselves" to mean rejection of the Atonement. Hebrews 10:29 clarifies this rejection even further - "trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the Blood of the covenant a common thing, and and insulted the Spirit of grace". Wow, that's apostasy if ever there was such a thing!
BTW, Larry, the word parapipto is used only in Hebrews 6:6, so I think it most problematic to make conclusive statements about its meaning relative to apostasy.
Greetings
It’s only relative to apostasy in terms that the falling away… represents what occurs before an apostasy.
.... or as Paul defined the opposite in verses 1-3 ...the opposite is also true
Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving “the principles of the doctrine” of Christ, (behind).... let us go on unto perfection; "not" laying again the foundation of repentance... from dead works,
and of faith toward God, = all this foundation that was given that Paul is speaking of was given to us though Moses
Perfection is only achieved by leaving behind “the principles of the doctrine” of Christ
BECAUSE those who were once enlightened, “have tasted” of the heavenly gift, and ….were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, WHOM in turn reveals “the principles of the doctrine” of Christ as mentioned here….
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring… “all things to your remembrance”, whatsoever….. I have said unto you.= “the principles of the doctrine” of Christ
the opposite is also true
.but only when the one is not restored (and in opposite of verse 1-2) ....Paul is telling us that the only way they can be restored is by laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, ....Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
By doing this.... the falling away is now relative to apostasy …but the apostasy occurs after falling away if one is not restored.
both Heb 6:1-2 when combined… represent = Moses and the prophets
Luke 24:27 And beginning “at Moses and all the prophets,” he (Jesus) expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
John 14:26 and Luke 24:27 are the key principals…
and when one is not restored by laying “again” the foundations of repentance
Then we have an apostasy because the apostasy occurs after falling away... if one is not restored.
This is by reason ...Because….. They have tasted of the heavenly gift, (= this means they have received the LOVE of Christ)
AND… in like manner…. they by receiving the love of Christ…. were made partakers of the Holy Ghost…
.....by whom the Holy Ghost … (in like manner to Jesus in John 14:26) now lays those foundations of repentance beginning “Christ,”
And like Jesus did; the HS Now expounds to us “in all the scriptures” the things concerning Jesus. (Not Moses and the prophets)
Can one see the progression?, which is the basis to the beginning of Hebrews 6.
Jesus begins at Moses and the prophets
And expounded unto them in “all the scriptures” the things concerning him- self.
When Jesus left… he sent us the helper
Therefore
The HS begins at Christ…. expounding to us “in all the scriptures” the things concerning Jesus = (not Moses and the prophets)…because of Mat 11:27
Therefore the HS begins at Christ ….Who in turn brings to our remembrance”, whatsoever….. Jesus has said to us… as He did in Luke 24:27… which is turn reveals to us the Father = Mat 11:27
There has to be 2 witnesses
The Father represents Moses and the prophets
The Son represents the Father
So the falling away spoken of here in Hebrews 6 represents one that has received the Love of Christ and was made partakers of the Holy Ghost… (Who in turn brings to our remembrance”, whatsoever….. Jesus has said… =beginning at Moses and ALL the prophets)...that when they fall away, they cannot fall farther than Moses and the prophets... or in other words… they fall into the hands of the living God. Hbr 10:31
Therefore
An opposite is true…
Once in the hands of the living God ….And….when the one “is not restored ” when laying… “ Again ” those foundations ……Then and only then.... is when we have an apostasy….
Because… they have “no excuse ”, Heb 6:4-6
Which means it’s an absolute denial… or a blasphemy of the HS = an apostate
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/17/2010 9:02:52 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1647
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: grahamcracker
Where does it say those whom the Hebrew writer are writing about have rejected the atonement?
1) The Greek word translated fallen away in the KJV is not the same word for apostasy.
2) Heb. 6:4-6 does not say they have rejected the atonement. It simply says they have fallen away.
It does say they have rejected the crucifixion of the Son of God, holding Him up to contempt (see Hebrews 6:6).
And the version I have says that it is impossible to renew them to repentance while they are recrucifying the Son of God. The implication, to me, is that if they should ever stop recrucifying the Son of God they would then be able to repent.
I checked several versions of the Bible. The ESV says "contempt." Other versions say "shame." We might do things that cause to shame Christ or cause others to hold him in contempt. Our actions might cause others to hold Him in contempt.
quote:
The implication, to me, is that if they should ever stop recrucifying the Son of God they would then be able to repent.
Interesting that you say they can repent "if they should ever stop." If I take your interpretation seriously, they cannot repent---ever. It is for that reason that you must take the meaning "impossible" and meaning "impossible," not "possible if..."
And since the word "repentance" is a noun, and not a verb, I consider that important. You interpret it as meaning a person cannot repent. I take it as referring to the time of repentance. It makes more sense in light of the context of maturity and growth, not the condition of one's eternal destiny.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 1/17/2010 9:40:37 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/17/2010 9:34:51 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5589
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
We might do things that shame Christ even if we do not hold him to contempt. Our actions might cause others to hold Him in contempt. It does not say a believer is actively doing so. Of course a Believer does not "actively" hold Christ in contempt! That is the behavior of the unbelieving apostate!
quote:
Interesting that you say they can repent "if they stop." If I take your interpretation seriously, then cannot repent---ever. It is for that reason that you must take the meaning "impossible" and meaning "impossible," not "possible if..." Exactly, apostates are lost forever because they have forever rejected Christ and they cannot repent ever again. Is that not the definition of true apostasy?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/17/2010 3:05:36 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1983
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: grahamcracker
Interesting that you say they can repent "if they should ever stop." If I take your interpretation seriously, they cannot repent---ever. It is for that reason that you must take the meaning "impossible" and meaning "impossible," not "possible if..."
My interpretation does not say that they cannot repent---ever. My interpretation says "It is impossible to restore them again to repentance . . . as long as they are crucifying once again the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt." It is impossible for them to repent as long as they are doing that, but should they ever stop crucifying once again the Son of God, they would then be able to repent.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land -- not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. -- Amos 8:11 (ESV)
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/17/2010 3:16:11 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1647
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
We might do things that shame Christ even if we do not hold him to contempt. Our actions might cause others to hold Him in contempt. It does not say a believer is actively doing so. Of course a Believer does not "actively" hold Christ in contempt! That is the behavior of the unbelieving apostate!
But I don't believe the passage is saying of those people: "in the case of those falling away"---they are holding Christ in active contempt. Translations are of necessity somewhat interpreted.
quote:
Interesting that you say they can repent "if they stop." If I take your interpretation seriously, then cannot repent---ever. It is for that reason that you must take the meaning "impossible" and meaning "impossible," not "possible if..." Exactly, apostates are lost forever because they have forever rejected Christ and they cannot repent ever again. Is that not the definition of true apostasy?
No, it is not. An apostate has simply left the faith. There is no comment regarding the meaning of apostasia regarding whether or not they have rejected Christ. Apostate usually refers to someone who has rejected certain cardinal doctrines of the faith like the deity of Christ, certain sins being acceptable, unacceptable. Someone who rejected the atonement or denied Christ would certainly qualify as an apostate, but the reverse is not necessarily true. Apostate is not really defined, per se.
The passage is not sufficiently clear to say that parapipto is synonymous with apostasy. Many people certainly think so but I don't think they should be dogmatic.
It's kind of funny. In deciding whether or not the passage referred to people losing their salvation, I spoke to a friend and asked him why people who don't believe in eternal security don't hold that a person who has lost it---why they can still be saved over again. I'll never forget his reply, "They can't be brought back to repentance because they were already saved." That clued me in to the fact that OSAS is probably not the topic of the passage. People who believe that it refers to losing one's salvation do not believe it is forever lost. Therefore, they must intensify the meaning of the word parapipto to refer to things like apostasy, blasphemy, repeated rejection and so forth---all without sufficient warrant. They are simply guessing and building a big case on guessing and assumptions.
If I were going to go that far, I would just build and equal case and assert that it means "if it were possible but it is impossible..." Either one is equally implausible without a number of assumptions and presuppositions. My own view holds the least number of assumptions and presuppositions.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 1/18/2010 7:13:44 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/18/2010 5:00:45 PM
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eschatologist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: eschatologist
So what it is really saying is that it's impossible to fall away, because it's impossible to renew you to repentence. You are saved forever, there is no need to make further sacrifices for sins, since Jesus did that once and for all.
I do not think that the passages you quoted say that.
They do say that if one falls away that it would be impossible to be renewed to repentance.
But your jump to "Once Saved Always Saved" is not at all supported in the verses you used, but just the opposite.
Now there are some passages that seem to support OSAS, but not the ones you are trying to use.
Thanks
RC
I beg to differ. The verses I quoted do say that. The Not OSAS people have a hard time with the fact that it says that if you "fall away" it is impossible to renew you again to repentence. If we take it at face value and accept it for what it says, it would mean that if you fall away you can't repent and be saved again, but are doomed to eternal damnation. So they try to interpret it with all kinds of different interpretations to try to make it conform to their particular theology.
Nobody seems to want to tackle the verses that I quoted or the subject. Here's another one on the subject: Hebrews 9:22: " And almost all things are by the law purged by blood; and without shedding of blood there is no remission." (of sins). So here it's saying that there is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood. That's why God instituted blood sacrifice of animals that the high priest offered every year for the sins of the people. But as you can see in the verse I quoted above, these blood sacrifices of could never completly purge people from their sins.
"Nor yet that He (Jesus) should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with the blood of others: for then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.(Hebrews 9:25-26)
Jesus blood sacrifice does put away sin forever. So that you do not have to keep coming back and getting your sins purged again and again. Since your sins have to be purged by blood, Jesus would have to keep coming and suffering for your sins again and again. Just like the blood sacrifice of the bulls and goats in the old testament.
But He put away sins once and for all (once saved always saved) by sacrificing himself.
Hebrews 10:10, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all."(Once saved always saved)
10:12, "But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, (Once saved always saved) sat down on the right hand of God.
10:14, "For by one offering he hath perfected forever (OSAS) them that are sanctified."
So, that's how I look at it and definitly do feel that the verse I quoted confirm the OSAS position.
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/22/2010 3:53:03 PM
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Jersey79
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Hi Bamatina, let me just say that I know COMPLETELY what you are going through. In fact I went through the same thing. My story is on this forum somewhere. I backslide for a few years because of an extreme tragedy. While it's good that you are coming to get answers, please also understand that just because you are on a Christian forum it doesn't mean the responses you get will be theologically accurate or full of the grace, and kindness, and gentleness that Jesus embodies and asks us to emulate. Oftentimes I had people on here using God's word as a sword to wound instead of to heal. This is why I love what Paul says
"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing"
So keep that in mind and guard your heart, especially in the very sensitive, seeking, and scary place you are at. I understand. So let's get started:
I have read-i'm estimating-over 30 books, commentaries, and articles on those verses and the interpretation given by GLORYANDGRACE is top notch. Thanks for that GloryandGrace
Remember this: repentance is a change of mind where you turn your back on sin and turn to Christ and it is something that only God can give someone
2 Timothy 2:22
"So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."
So you see, when God grants you repentance, it leads you to a knowledge of the truth about Him where you say, "man I've been wrong about Him, He is good. I want to love Him. I want a relationship with Him." And if you are feeling that just know that it can't come from yourself. And this reminds me of another person to whom God granted repentance; who "came to his senses." Look here:
Luke 16:17-20
"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him."
So you see, the son didn't cease being the father's son. The father was wishing him to return kind of the like the people James is talking about here:
James 5:19-20
My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
So the reality is that there is a line between James 5:19 and Hebrews 6:4. It's the line where God gives you over to his passive wrath, sears your conscience, and sends you a strong delusion. The reality is that repentance is always possible while it is still possible, so to speak. I heard it once said that if you look in the depths of a backsliders heart you will see God there, but if you look in the depths of an apostates heart you will see his father the devil.
We are talking about the difference between Peter who denied and abandoned Christ, and Judas who betrayed him but never repented. We are talking about the difference between people like the incestuous man in Corinthians and David who committed prolonged adultery and then murder, and people like a Dan Barker for instance. Apostates become enemies of God. They hate him, and they want to convince other's that He isn't true.
Rest assured that you are different, you want to repent. In fact you are coming to Jesus saying "I want to know you. I want to love you." So here is Jesus' response to you from His own lips:
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
So are you coming to Him? Of course. Does it matter if you were saved or not before? Does the centuries old debate of Calvinism vs. Arminianism vs. Molinism bear on whether you can come back or not? For you to come back, does it matter if the people in Hebrews 6:4 were saved before or not? No, it doesn't. God is granting you repentance. He wants you back. So keep coming
Jersey
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/22/2010 4:03:28 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2384
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eschatologist
10:14, "For by one offering he hath perfected forever (OSAS) them that are sanctified."
So, that's how I look at it and definitly do feel that the verse I quoted confirm the OSAS position.
So according to the point of the verse ... then one has to be sanctified first?
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 1/22/2010 8:21:44 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/22/2010 6:27:38 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5589
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
So according to the point of the verse ... then one has to be santified first? Interesting thought, LG. There is a minority position in the American Holiness Movement that would consider second blessing holiness or entire sanctification to be the event that forever marks the eternal security of the Christian. I doubt that's what eschatologist was actually referring to since there seem to be few if any proponents of that doctrine posting on these Theology folders.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 1/22/2010 8:20:08 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2384
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
So according to the point of the verse ... then one has to be sanctified first? Interesting thought, LG. There is a minority position in the American Holiness Movement that would consider second blessing holiness or entire sanctification to be the event that forever marks the eternal security of the Christian. I doubt that's what eschatologist was actually referring to since there seem to be few if any proponents of that doctrine posting on these Theology folders.
Ok...
never read any of the OSAS doctrine
And as I was just posting this...
I saw a relationship in this verse
10:14, "For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified."
The inspiration seems to be linking to ...the rest of the story.. here in
Hbr 6:6
Where ...by the one offering... in like manner
THAT
Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
Sounds like the same writer...
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 2/17/2010 8:49:12 PM
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dustymud
Posts: 2
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god always forgives and forgets
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 2/17/2010 10:19:05 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5589
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dustymud
god always forgives and forgets
Umm, no dustymud, that's not what Hebrews 6 and 10 state. In fact, it is impossible for some to be renewed again to repentance (6:6) and certain fearful expectation of judgment remains for some (10:27). God does NOT always forgive and forget!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/2/2010 2:19:01 PM
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Jersey79
Posts: 81
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Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that God always forgives those who are truly repentant, but that those who have committed this sin will never repent again? I think God does always forgive according to scripture...well He forgives those to whom he gives repentance. But since he's the one who gives repentance He can withhold it from these people and they will never want to repent. For by definition the desire to repent and to ask forgiveness and turn from your sin is repentance.
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/2/2010 2:40:42 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8201
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jersey79
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that God always forgives those who are truly repentant, but that those who have committed this sin will never repent again? I think God does always forgive according to scripture...well He forgives those to whom he gives repentance. But since he's the one who gives repentance He can withhold it from these people and they will never want to repent. For by definition the desire to repent and to ask forgiveness and turn from your sin is repentance.
God gives repentance; please expalin?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/4/2010 6:52:45 PM
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ciglorious
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Heb 6:4-6
4. For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
If Christians who have attained the following fall away, it is impossible for them to be renew again unto repentance:
1. the powers of the world to come: Powers of the world (age) to come is the power that comes with His Kingdom. It is by the Holy Ghost.
2. Have tasted the good word of God: To taste the good word of God is to have the good word of God written in the mind and put in the heart. This good word, at that point, is the word of the kingdom. It is by the Holy Ghost.
3. Were made partakers of the Holy Ghost: Partakers of the Holy Ghost partake in the word, testimony, works that bring about the kingdom and power of God. Such partakers obtain the fullness (perfection) of God. It is by the Holy Ghost.
4. Have tasted of the heavenly gift: The heavenly gift is the eternal life. There are Three who bear record of eternal life in heaven: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost bears that record in the minds and hearts of those who partake of eternal life.
5. Those who were once enlightened: The Son of God is the light of the glory of God. This enlightenment happens at glorification. Those who were once glorified had also earlier obtained the kingdom of God by the Holy Ghost; glorification succeeds the fullness (perfection) of God by the Holy Ghost.
Heb. 6:4-6 simply declares that Christians who have once been glorified, after having obtained the fullness of God, will definitely find it impossible to be renewed unto repentance if they fall away.
Fall Away
To fall away is to fall-out-of-the-way. So, we need to know who and what it means to be in the way.
The Lord Jesus Christ declared Himself to be the Way; He is the Way. He is also the Truth (by the Spirit) and the Life (by the fullness and glorification) of God.
John The Baptist came to prepare the way. He was not the Way, but he came to prepare the way. Summarily put, the way relates with having the things of God in the heart and soul of men. That is, it relates with the faith and grace that gives righteousness in the heart and saves the soul of a man respectively.
So, we can correctly conclude that to be in the way is to have the righteousness (by faith) and peace (by grace) in the heart and soul respectively. Conversely, whosoever falls away is loses the faith of God in his heart and the grace of God that can save his soul.
The Way of Perfection
There is the faith and grace of God that brings about the hope of things of the world to come. Upon attaining the fullness (perfection) of God, that faith and grace unto hope no longer makes one to hope for the promise, but brings about the very substance of promised thing. Both types of faith bring about (reveal) the righteousness of God - the former unto the hope of righteousness (Gal. 5:5), the later unto the very substance of righteousness.
While in the Christ, which is before perfection, faith and grace by the token Spirit with which a Christian is sealed brings about the promise of the fullness of the Spirit, the glory of God, eternal life, etc. Such a Christian is yet to obtain the very substance of the Spirit, glory or eternal life. He hopes to obtain those promises, and by principles of the doctrine of Christ lays the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.
There comes a time to advance into perfection. Hebrews 6:1 declares: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
At the perfection (fullness) of God, which is obtained in the kingdom of God by partaking of the Holy Ghost, that faith unto hope is changed to bring about the substance of the very promised thing. It becomes the substance of what was hoped for - see Hebrews 11:1.
That is what the scripture refers to as "from faith (unto hope of righteousness) to faith (that is the substance of righteousness)". The former comes by the pledge (token) of the Spirit given to a new believer, but the later comes by the Holy Ghost in the kingdom of God. Always remember that the kingdom of God defines as "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost".
Therefore, the way of perfection is righteousness by the Holy Ghost. Remember we earlier concluded that "to be in the way is to have the righteousness (by faith) and peace (by grace) in the heart and soul respectively".
Falling Away From Perfection
Prior to partaking of the perfection (fullness) of God by the Holy Ghost, whosoever falls away from the way of Christ by losing his faith (unto hope for the promise) can be renewed unto repentance. Such a person can repent from dead works and continue in the principles of the doctrine of Christ to hope for the promise.
But in perfection, having partaken of the Holy Ghost to obtain/attain the perfect faith that is the substance of promised things, and having been thereafter enlightened (glorified), whosoever falls away can never be renewed unto repentance.
Such a person has fallen-out-of-the-way of the righteousness of God. That is it for such a person! It is impossible for such a person to be renewed unto repentance from dead works as would be case if he or she had not moved into perfection. That is the gist of Hebrews 6:4-6.
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Grace and peace from God and from the Christ unto all!
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/4/2010 11:34:37 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 824
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bamatina
Hebrews 6: 4-6 and Hebrews 10: 24-26
These verses greatly disturb me. It kinda sounds like if you make a mistake after accepting Christ as your Savior, you are doomed.
I know I accepted Christ as my savior over 10 years ago...and for a while, I lived a Christian life that had me feeling close to God. Then I slipped away from God and have sinned many times. I keep searching for answers...was I truly saved? how do I know? I continually pray for confidence in my salvation but it seems that God is silent. What am I doing wrong?
Many thanks to all who can give me a little guidance in where to go with my search.
Has nothing to do with making mistakes.
The writer of Hebrews are talking about Christians who deliberately walk away from God without repenting.
I have seen it happen many times.
OSAS is a false doctrine.
That doesn't mean we walk around insecure in our salvation.....if you believe and are living your life faithfully obeying Christ and are in the spiritual battle then you can trust God's promises.
This is talking about people who know longer desire to be Christians and deliberately leave God.
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/5/2010 7:59:30 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1983
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ciglorious
Heb 6:4-6
4. For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
If Christians who have attained the following fall away, it is impossible for them to be renew again unto repentance:
The word translated "seeing" in verse 6 has the implication of a non-continuous action. In other words, it means "while." Therefore the verse has the meaning that it is impossible to renew such people to repentance as long as they continue to crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh. Should they discontinue doing that, then, of course, they will be renewed again unto repentance.
I will admit, though, as rare as it is for one to turn their back on the salvation they once partook of, it is probably even rarer for one who has done so, to return again to repentance.
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greatdivide46
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land -- not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. -- Amos 8:11 (ESV)
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/5/2010 9:19:38 AM
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ciglorious
Posts: 32
Joined: 3/1/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jersey79
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that God always forgives those who are truly repentant, but that those who have committed this sin will never repent again? I think God does always forgive according to scripture...well He forgives those to whom he gives repentance. But since he's the one who gives repentance He can withhold it from these people and they will never want to repent. For by definition the desire to repent and to ask forgiveness and turn from your sin is repentance.
God gives repentance; please expalin?
Thanks
RC
Indeed, God gives repentance. Romans 2:4 declares: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
To those who are not given to understand/enter the kingdom of God, God can also withhold repentance (converting the heart) of persons. Mark 4:12 declares: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
Again, John 12:40 declares: He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
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RE: Can someone please explain these verses? - 3/5/2010 9:26:04 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5589
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
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quote:
Indeed, God gives repentance. So exactly what sins has God committed and gives repentance for? cig, is there anything a lost sinner must think, say, or do in order to be saved? Or do they just sit around like a lump of clay totally oblivious to God's capricious saving grace?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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