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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/18/2010 11:10:23 PM
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gralan
Posts: 2017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
And my posiion is that during that examination we find that we are continuing in sin (living a sinful lifestyle) that we have somehow missed the boat and the Spirit of God is not dwelling in us.
This postion does not refute "Saved by Grace" in any way, manner, or style, only promotes that a saved peson will not continue in sin.
Thanks
RC
RC, it seems to me that unless a person is continually humbling themself before God that something is wrong in that relationship.
I cannot equate that with not being saved, but rather equate it with not being a faithful servant in all things.
Its one thing to say repentent words, especially if someone tells us "repeat after me..."
It is a completely different matter to be alone with God, knowing God knows and we can lie to ourselves or accept God's awareness of our nature.
By the way, how many times is God required to forgive us if we continually sin? Seven times?
_____________________________
suffering servant,
gralan,
BTh student TGSAT
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/18/2010 11:42:08 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
A person who continues in sin, or lives a sinful lifestyle is not a Christian.
This is not the issue. The issue is whether the one who is saved by grace is also "kept by the power of God". And Scripture says that it is so.
The one who continues sinning needs to repent and be converted so that he may be saved by grace, and kept by the power of God.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/19/2010 7:55:24 AM
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greatdivide46
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I like the way one theologian that I read put it: "We are saved by grace through faith for good works when we are baptized."
_____________________________
greatdivide46
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land -- not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. -- Amos 8:11 (ESV)
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/19/2010 8:42:52 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8201
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
By the way, how many times is God required to forgive us if we continually sin? Seven times?
Do You mean seven times if a sinner repents and confesses?
It seems that repenting seven times would be a difficult feat, since repentance means to change one's mind and not do that sin anymore.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/19/2010 2:38:36 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I like the way one theologian that I read put it: "We are saved by grace through faith for good works when we are baptized."
I can agree with this provided baptism is not deemed necessary for salvation. If it is, it nullifies "saved by grace".
We are saved by grace through faith, just as Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness.
It would appear that too many Christians really don't understand what imputed righteousness is all about (and I'm not necessarily saying you don't).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/19/2010 2:53:54 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9201
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I like the way one theologian that I read put it: "We are saved by grace through faith for good works when we are baptized."
I liked the way I heard one theologian put it: A faith that is fails at the finish was faulty from the first.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/19/2010 6:14:46 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1983
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I like the way one theologian that I read put it: "We are saved by grace through faith for good works when we are baptized."
I liked the way I heard one theologian put it: A faith that is fails at the finish was faulty from the first.
That theologian, apparently, wasn't aware of the book of Hebrews, the entire premise of which, is that people not to return to the pre-salvation lifestyles. Apparently the writer of Hebrews thought it possible for his audience's faith to fail even though he didn't consider their faith faulty to begin with.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land -- not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. -- Amos 8:11 (ESV)
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/19/2010 11:08:56 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1828
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quote:
That theologian, apparently, wasn't aware of the book of Hebrews, the entire premise of which, is that people not to return to the pre-salvation lifestyles.
The real issue in Hebrews was would Hebrew Christians hold fast to Christ and not revert back to Moses (Heb. 10:19-23). This is dealing with apostasy (turning away from Christ and His finished work) and reverting to the Mosaic system of ceremonial observances, not sinful lifestyles per se. This is unbelief, the greatest sin.
quote:
Apparently the writer of Hebrews thought it possible for his audience's faith to fail even though he didn't consider their faith faulty to begin with.
Possible but not probable. Paul says that indeed if one were to fall away from Christ altogether, it would be impossible for him to return, "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame" (Heb. 6:6). However, Paul is confident about these Hebrew Christians that that will not be the case: "But beloved we are persuaded better things of you, AND THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION, though we thus speak" (Heb. 6:9).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/20/2010 8:26:03 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1983
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
That theologian, apparently, wasn't aware of the book of Hebrews, the entire premise of which, is that people not to return to the pre-salvation lifestyles.
The real issue in Hebrews was would Hebrew Christians hold fast to Christ and not revert back to Moses (Heb. 10:19-23). This is dealing with apostasy (turning away from Christ and His finished work) and reverting to the Mosaic system of ceremonial observances, not sinful lifestyles per se. This is unbelief, the greatest sin. Precisely.
quote:
quote:
Apparently the writer of Hebrews thought it possible for his audience's faith to fail even though he didn't consider their faith faulty to begin with.
Possible but not probable. Paul says that indeed if one were to fall away from Christ altogether, it would be impossible for him to return, "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame" (Heb. 6:6). However, Paul is confident about these Hebrew Christians that that will not be the case: "But beloved we are persuaded better things of you, AND THINGS THAT ACCOMPANY SALVATION, though we thus speak" (Heb. 6:9).
Just because Paul expressed confidence in the faith of these Hebrew Christians doesn't mean that he thought it was impossible for them to leave the faith and return to their pre-salvation lifestyles.
I agree it would be impossible for them to return, "as long as they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame." If they should cease to do that, then, of course, they can return.
There seems to be some validity to the words I bolded being a legitimate translation.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land -- not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. -- Amos 8:11 (ESV)
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/20/2010 10:13:51 AM
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mysteryofgospel
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Sorry,
What I wanted to write was too close to the OSAS thread. I had to edit that out and now I'm left with nothing to say.
< Message edited by mysteryofgospel -- 2/20/2010 10:23:56 AM >
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/20/2010 10:32:10 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
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quote:
That theologian, apparently, wasn't aware of the book of Hebrews, the entire premise of which, is that people not to return to the pre-salvation lifestyles. Apparently the writer of Hebrews thought it possible for his audience's faith to fail even though he didn't consider their faith faulty to begin with. Lifestyle was not the point the Holy Spirit was dealing with,but a drawing back into Judaism by many of the professed brethren. They were enduring harsh persecution for their faith and many of them began to draw back from Christianity. (To draw back is not committing some sin of the flesh, it is to out right deny The Lord Jesus Christ as the only way or method in worshiping God after having known the truth). Our Lord spoke of these type of individuals who fall away as having "NO ROOT".
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
The Spirit speaks of the individuals who draw back as "them" not us. We have wheat, and tares, sheep ,and goats, Saints and Vipers all in the same sphere of worship today. These warnings are adressed to "them" not us.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Genuine believers believe to the saving of the soul. We are rooted in Christ Jesus the sure foundation and can never fall away or perish.
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
The Spirit is admonishing those that have genuine faith to "go on" to better things. Those that draw back are simply dogs returning to their own vomit. Those among them who were "ONCE FOR ALL ENLIGHTENED" yet draw back is given a solemn warning.
The Holy Spirit brought a genuine conviction of sin and the reality of Our Lord to their hearts, they have seen the great miracles of God done among them, if they should then fall away( still reject the Lord Jesus Christ for some other religious means) they cannot be renewed to repentence because they are no longer ignorant of God's truth. They now take their place with those that Crucified our Lord. They are saying to themselves. "away with this man, crucify him".
This is much greater than living a sinful lifestyle. This is the ultimate sin of unbelief, of calling God a lie,not believing the record that God gave of his Son. It's a great error to teach that a saint that commits a sin is falling away. That is no where taught in scripture.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins:
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/20/2010 1:07:18 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8201
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
It's a great error to teach that a saint that commits a sin is falling away. That is no where taught in scripture.
(1Jn 3:8) He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.
(1Jn 3:9) Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the Devil: everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God, also he who does not love his brother.
If someone is practicing sin they are not of God, and it really does not matter if they were never of God, or were of God; but not of God now.
Which is why Paul tells us;
(2Co 13:5) examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith, prove your own selves. Do you not know your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are reprobates?
And this instruction was written to;
(2Co 1:1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, to the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/20/2010 2:55:33 PM
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Reform_Dave
Posts: 897
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From: Where the mountains touch the sky.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
If someone is practicing sin they are not of God, and it really does not matter if they were never of God, or were of God; but not of God now
Saved34 specifically said "commits a sin", but you changed the term to " practices sin", was that an oversight?, because those two terms do not mean the same thing since one speaks of a single isolated act, and the other of habitual acts.
_____________________________
If the Gospel were more clearly and faithfully preached, fewer would profess to believe it.- A.W. Pink
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/20/2010 3:03:10 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
If someone is practicing sin they are not of God, and it really does not matter if they were never of God, or were of God; but not of God now.
RC:
I already addressed this, but you would rather focus on the sinner than on the Savior and His saving grace.
However, one cannot be "of God" at one point and "not of God" at another point as though on a see-saw. One is either in the Kingdom of Light or in the Kingdom of Darkness, and there is no switching back and forth as you seem to suggest. One is either a child of God (through faith by God's grace and the new birth that He gives) or one is a child of the devil -- unregenerate, lost, dead, blind.
At the same time, Scripture is very clear that "the old man" or "the flesh" has not been eradicated when a sinner is born again. Even Paul had to battle his flesh (Rom.7:18). Now here is an apostle saved by grace and kept by the power of God who honestly states the case:
"For I know that in me (that is, IN MY FLESH) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not".
That is why John says that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (Jn.1:8,9).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 7:29:24 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 8201
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
The real issue in Hebrews was would Hebrew Christians hold fast to Christ and not revert back to Moses (Heb. 10:19-23). This is dealing with apostasy (turning away from Christ and His finished work) and reverting to the Mosaic system of ceremonial observances, not sinful lifestyles per se. This is unbelief, the greatest sin.
Would not reverting back for a gentile be going back to the former ways.
Which would be being a slave to sin, and not servant to Righteousness (Rom 6).
And isn't one's lifestye indicitive of who they serve; flesh or God.
Christ said; (Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
And that would be apostosy.
Or do you conider that only Jews could becme apostates.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 9:17:28 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1983
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From: Coffee County, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved 34
Lifestyle was not the point the Holy Spirit was dealing with,but a drawing back into Judaism by many of the professed brethren. They were enduring harsh persecution for their faith and many of them began to draw back from Christianity. (To draw back is not committing some sin of the flesh, it is to out right deny The Lord Jesus Christ as the only way or method in worshiping God after having known the truth). Our Lord spoke of these type of individuals who fall away as having "NO ROOT". So "drawing back into Judaism" is not a return to a pre-salvation lifestyle? I would have to disagree with that, if that's what you meant. I realize they were enduring harsh persecution for their faith. That's why they wanted to return to their pre-salvation lifestyles. As far as them having "NO ROOT" -- apparently the writer of Hebrews thought they had enough of a root to try to convince them not to abandon the Christian faith that they were being persecuted for. If they really had no root I think the writer's whole approach would have been substantially different.
Nevertheless, they were saved by grace, just as we are, and the writer of Hebrews knew that.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land -- not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. -- Amos 8:11 (ESV)
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 1:12:57 PM
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Saved34
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quote:
Which would be being a slave to sin, and not servant to Righteousness (Rom 6).
Romans 6 is entirely dedicated to Christian men and woman. That chapter is not at all about Salvation or saving faith, it is about the mechanics or process in which the Now born again man or woman can be free from the practice of sin. In other words, this grace of God is so covering, so powerful, so all encompassing that Paul had to let it be known that we believers should not continue in sin that grace may abound.
Romans 6 is not some little rule or guideline to being saved, that is treated as a fact already passed. "How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?" Our rule of conduct is no longer based on doing works to maintain our status with God, we are delivered from that unfruitful type of lifestyle. The only thing that will come from that is frustration and failure, we are now dead to that and have been joined to Christ now to serve in freedom. Under no condemnation whatsoever,simply yielding ourselves to the Spirit that fruit may be produced.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 1:32:27 PM
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Saved34
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quote:
Would not reverting back for a gentile be going back to the former ways.
No, it's much more than that. You guys are so hung up on other mens sins that you're missing the bigger picture. Sins come about because of the nature of a thing. God is not counting men's sins against them in this age of Grace (understand carefully what I mean) What God is counting against man is the rejection of his Beloved Son. Make no mistake all ungodly men will pay for the actual sins done while on earth, because they did not recieve the one who paid it all for them.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Falling away is a complete denial of the Christ of the Bible. It is not an act of sin such as adultery, fornication, lieing, stealing, it is the act of saying the Son of God was justly crucified and counting his Holy finished work as an unclean thing. I've seen many people who flippantly say "I once believed in that Christianity ,and the Bible, but I found Budhism now, or I'm a Muslim, or I'm Roman Catholic. Only God knows if they have ever had enough revelation to never be called to repentance again. There is a huge difference in a poor soul who is trapped in these false religions and then get saved, than one who makes a profession of faith from these pagan religions and then turn back to them. That is falling away or apostasy.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 1:45:54 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8201
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
Romans 6 is not some little rule or guideline to being saved, that is treated as a fact already passed. "How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?"
And if that peson does continue in sin, or goes back to living in sin?
Again it seems to me that you are condoning sin, or at least saying that continuing is sin is not a problem.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 2:02:12 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
Romans 6 is not some little rule or guideline to being saved, that is treated as a fact already passed. "How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?"
And if that peson does continue in sin, or goes back to living in sin?
Again it seems to me that you are condoning sin, or at least saying that continuing is sin is not a problem.
Thanks
RC
Have you as a Christian ever gone back to living in sin? All the years you have professed to be saved, have you ever "gone back" to living in sin?
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 2:28:36 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 8201
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
Romans 6 is not some little rule or guideline to being saved, that is treated as a fact already passed. "How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?"
And if that peson does continue in sin, or goes back to living in sin?
Again it seems to me that you are condoning sin, or at least saying that continuing is sin is not a problem.
Thanks
RC
Have you as a Christian ever gone back to living in sin? All the years you have professed to be saved, have you ever "gone back" to living in sin?
No.
Have you?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 3:58:53 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
Romans 6 is not some little rule or guideline to being saved, that is treated as a fact already passed. "How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?"
And if that peson does continue in sin, or goes back to living in sin?
Again it seems to me that you are condoning sin, or at least saying that continuing is sin is not a problem.
Thanks
RC
Have you as a Christian ever gone back to living in sin? All the years you have professed to be saved, have you ever "gone back" to living in sin?
No.
Have you?
Thanks
RC
I sure have. Not proud of it, but I'd be less than honest if I said I have not.
_____________________________
2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 4:36:34 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1983
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Coffee County, Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved34
Romans 6 is not some little rule or guideline to being saved, that is treated as a fact already passed. "How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?"
And if that peson does continue in sin, or goes back to living in sin?
Again it seems to me that you are condoning sin, or at least saying that continuing is sin is not a problem.
Thanks
RC
Have you as a Christian ever gone back to living in sin? All the years you have professed to be saved, have you ever "gone back" to living in sin?
No.
Have you?
Thanks
RC
Nor have I, although I must admit that the Bible seems to imply that its possible for people to revert to their pre-salvation way of living. I personally have never done that, but being aware of the possibility keeps me motivated to stay close to my Lord and Savior.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land -- not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. -- Amos 8:11 (ESV)
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RE: Saved By Grace - 2/21/2010 4:45:38 PM
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Saved34
Posts: 867
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
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I understand you guys are just using a play upon words, but saying you have never sinned or have never failed God is simply not biblical or being very honest. There is no shame in falling on the mercy of our Lord. God desires truth in the inward parts.
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2Ti 2:3 Join me in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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