RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check???
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 5:37:10 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 501
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
An employer can require a drug test as a condition of employment. There is no law, regulation, case, or Constitutional provision that prevents this.
This is what needs to be done with welfare recipients. AS A CONDITION OF RECEIVING THE BENEFIT. If you don't want to follow those rules, then go out and get a job.
G
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 5:42:03 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 141
Joined: 7/6/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
An employer can require a drug test as a condition of employment. There is no law, regulation, case, or Constitutional provision that prevents this.
This is what needs to be done with welfare recipients. AS A CONDITION OF RECEIVING THE BENEFIT. If you don't want to follow those rules, then go out and get a job.
G
Yeah you lazy stay at home moms! Whose husbands left them with a 2 year old that doesn't go to school, who has no family to watch her kid so she can't go to work!
Or you! You disabled man in a wheel chair still on bed rest, who can't work yet! Let's make your time more degrading for you by peeing in a cup just to make sure you aren't sneaking blow into the hospital through your cast!
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 5:46:13 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 141
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
An employer can require a drug test as a condition of employment. There is no law, regulation, case, or Constitutional provision that prevents this.
This is what needs to be done with welfare recipients. AS A CONDITION OF RECEIVING THE BENEFIT. If you don't want to follow those rules, then go out and get a job.
G
Yeah you lazy stay at home moms! Whose husbands left them with a 2 year old that doesn't go to school, who has no family to watch her kid so she can't go to work!
Or you! You disabled man in a wheel chair still on bed rest, who can't work yet! Let's make your time more degrading for you by peeing in a cup just to make sure you aren't sneaking blow into the hospital through your cast!
Or you people with jobs, though still can't make ends meet! Go get another job!
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 7:40:06 PM
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macokjc
Posts: 498
Joined: 2/24/2008
Status: online
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quote:
This is what needs to be done with welfare recipients. AS A CONDITION OF RECEIVING THE BENEFIT. If you don't want to follow those rules, then go out and get a job.
You are sadly, sadly mistaken if you think that it is that easy, especially in this day and age. I hope that you are all praying that for the grace of God, it will never have to be you, because for all of your bravado - I would never do that - I would go and work at Walmart to support my family - here is a news flash - it's not that easy.
AND I ASK IT YET AGAIN - WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE? Is it because you think it is perfectly acceptable to accept the forms of government help that you do? Is it because some kinds of federal aid are more socially acceptable than others. Maybe they should line us all up and test us all before we walk out of the door in the morning? Would that be acceptable?
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/8/2010 7:42:39 PM
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SteveSund
Posts: 211
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
Yeah, I'm aware that it happens, but that doesn't mean it's not Unconstitutional. That's my point, there are a lot of laws that I'm sure you don't agree with, point is, though they can do that now, should they be able to?
Should they be able to make you stop smoking just to get a cost deduction from their healthcare provider. Also, because they have a rule that says no smoking, are they allowed to have random health checks to check your lungs to see if you have been smoking?
The Bill of Rights is a limit on the power of the State. It is not a limit on the power of citizens. As a private property owner I can violate the Constitution on my property. There are no federal laws that prevent a private employer from testing employees, so it would be allowed.
Personally, I think it is very intrusive and I wouldn't work for them unless there was no other alternative. I also don't get my insurance through them and avoid doing business with them altogether. That being said, they can set up whatever rules they want, as long as they don't violate any laws.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 2:26:43 AM
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wolfvanzandt
Posts: 576
Joined: 4/12/2005
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RC, 100% should not be tested because, if there's no indication that drugs are involved, money shouldn't be wasted to test for them. The first test for drugs is inspection.
And people make wrong decisions in their lives. I'm not against helping them correct their mistakes. If you want a practical reason for helping them get off drugs, addicts are a danger to and a drag on society. The quicker they become productive citizens, the better off society is.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 8:25:41 AM
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pink..
Posts: 11014
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: Indiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
An employer can require a drug test as a condition of employment. There is no law, regulation, case, or Constitutional provision that prevents this.
This is what needs to be done with welfare recipients. AS A CONDITION OF RECEIVING THE BENEFIT. If you don't want to follow those rules, then go out and get a job.
G
Yeah you lazy stay at home moms! Whose husbands left them with a 2 year old that doesn't go to school, who has no family to watch her kid so she can't go to work!
Or you! You disabled man in a wheel chair still on bed rest, who can't work yet! Let's make your time more degrading for you by peeing in a cup just to make sure you aren't sneaking blow into the hospital through your cast!
And drug use will help those people in what way?
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 11:00:54 AM
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macokjc
Posts: 498
Joined: 2/24/2008
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quote:
Wow...you went completely off the deepend with this one. He's not saying that people shouldn't be on welfare; he's saying that if you want to be on welfare you HAVE to abide by the guidelines.
BTW...a woman can get free or extremely cheap daycare so she can go to school so that excuse doesn't fly
Geez. This isn't rocket science people.
Seriously, I could say the same thing. The fact that nobody has bothered to answer the questions brought up several times about where to draw the line does make me wonder, though. I think this goes back to the whole socially acceptable sins argument. Or in this case, socially acceptable federal aid. WHY should it be only welfare recipients, because somebody THINKS they could be doing something wrong? That is clearly unreasonable. Companies do not random drug test to catch their employees in illegal activity. They random drug test because drugs can hinder work performance.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 11:07:11 AM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 141
Joined: 7/6/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
Yeah, I'm aware that it happens, but that doesn't mean it's not Unconstitutional. That's my point, there are a lot of laws that I'm sure you don't agree with, point is, though they can do that now, should they be able to?
Should they be able to make you stop smoking just to get a cost deduction from their healthcare provider. Also, because they have a rule that says no smoking, are they allowed to have random health checks to check your lungs to see if you have been smoking?
The Bill of Rights is a limit on the power of the State. It is not a limit on the power of citizens. As a private property owner I can violate the Constitution on my property. There are no federal laws that prevent a private employer from testing employees, so it would be allowed.
Personally, I think it is very intrusive and I wouldn't work for them unless there was no other alternative. I also don't get my insurance through them and avoid doing business with them altogether. That being said, they can set up whatever rules they want, as long as they don't violate any laws.
There have already been many cases where people have refused drug tests and even took the employer to court and won due to it not being constitutional.
Once again, it's an invasion of privacy, and is something that has become standard but shouldn't be. Your employer has no right to control your personal life, but they do have a right to a certain amount of job performance. A drug Test doesn't grade job performance, it doesn't tell you when you were on drugs, and there are so many ways to cheat it anyway. A drug test doesn't show whether you were at home smokin up or on the job.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 11:10:55 AM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 141
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pink..
quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
An employer can require a drug test as a condition of employment. There is no law, regulation, case, or Constitutional provision that prevents this.
This is what needs to be done with welfare recipients. AS A CONDITION OF RECEIVING THE BENEFIT. If you don't want to follow those rules, then go out and get a job.
G
Yeah you lazy stay at home moms! Whose husbands left them with a 2 year old that doesn't go to school, who has no family to watch her kid so she can't go to work!
Or you! You disabled man in a wheel chair still on bed rest, who can't work yet! Let's make your time more degrading for you by peeing in a cup just to make sure you aren't sneaking blow into the hospital through your cast!
And drug use will help those people in what way?
So... you are assuming they are on drugs because they are on welfare? I am not saying people should be able to do drugs at home, (that's a different topic), but I'm saying it's intrusive, and you are acting like just because I'm against it I have something to hide. I don't, it's like if a cop asks you to search your car, you have a right to refuse, it doesn't mean you are hiding something, it just means you are using your 4th amendment right to not be searched without probable cause.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 11:44:16 AM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 141
Joined: 7/6/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
Wow...you went completely off the deepend with this one. He's not saying that people shouldn't be on welfare; he's saying that if you want to be on welfare you HAVE to abide by the guidelines.
BTW...a woman can get free or extremely cheap daycare so she can go to school so that excuse doesn't fly. 
Geez. This isn't rocket science people. 
It's not, and there is no way I'm putting my kids in a cheap government run daycare. The only ones I would put them in are ones I trust and can monitor.
And what he is saying, not in so many words but what it seems to me, is that lazy people are on welfare should jump when the gov says jump because they are getting a free ride, and if they don't bend over for the gov then they need to stop being lazy and get a job... It isn't that simple for some people. What if you do find a job but the best you have is workin 9-5 for 7 dollars an hour. It's impossible to live off that. I know sir, I was makin 9 dollars an hour with my wife and kid at the age of 19.
You can't afford an apartment, a car payment, diapers, clothes, and food. It's really hard, and to make me go to some clinic to pee in a cup to show that I'm trust worthy after I busted my butt all day providing for my family is just an insult.
Once again, I really wanna know peoples definition on Welfare, what do you consider welfare?
Are some people gonna cheat the system? Yes, it's gonna happen, whether you do a drug test or not, but treating everyone like criminals isn't going to change anything. It's gonna keep those few stoners unstoned for the month before the drug test.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 11:48:09 AM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 141
Joined: 7/6/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
Yeah, I know you have to abide by the guidelines, but this isn't a guideline yet, and I don't think it should be.
No there's not, and there are those of us who think there should be. Round' and round' we go! Where we stop...nobody knows. 
quote:
guidelines, but this isn't a guideline yet, and I don't think it should be.
I have no idea how what you just said relates to what you quoted from me... so yeah... cool...
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 12:08:40 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4125
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SteveSund
The Bill of Rights is a limit on the power of the State. It is not a limit on the power of citizens. As a private property owner I can violate the Constitution on my property. So - you think that if you are a private employer you can violate the civil rights of your employees? You can discriminate against colors or religions or genders? You can disregard due process for search and siezures?
Dream on.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 2:10:25 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 501
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
Status: online
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People have to take drug tests for work all the time. Bus drives, train conductors, pilots, grocery clerks, telemarketers school district employees, and the list goes on. I don't see what the difference is with being a welfare recipient. I am not even saying testing every week, I am saying an inital testing and then random tests just like many employees have to face.
G
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 2:30:01 PM
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enter_address_here
Posts: 141
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
People have to take drug tests for work all the time. Bus drives, train conductors, pilots, grocery clerks, telemarketers school district employees, and the list goes on. I don't see what the difference is with being a welfare recipient. I am not even saying testing every week, I am saying an inital testing and then random tests just like many employees have to face.
G
Well, compared to that there isn't any difference, but some also feel drug testing in the work place is wrong.
So is anyone going to tell me what their definition of welfare is?
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 2:52:11 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
Well, compared to that there isn't any difference, but some also feel drug testing in the work place is wrong.
I am sure that those who do drugs feel that way.
quote:
So is anyone going to tell me what their definition of welfare is?
Welfare is government money (tax moniues) given to folks who have less than a specified amount of income. This can include Food Stamps, ADC, Rent subsidy, Utilitity assistance, etc. etc.
Thannks
RC
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 3:30:51 PM
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wretched1
Posts: 283
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From: The state of confusion.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
ORIGINAL: wretched1
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
~~~
I don't see myself in favor of anything in that post. I asked questions. Perhaps I read too much into:
"I can't see them testing 100%."
I assumed that you were going to use some reasonable criteria for determining who should and should not be tested :-)
That sounds like 'when did you stop beating your wife' type comment. 
~~~ Sorry - it was not meant to be.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 3:35:26 PM
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SteveSund
Posts: 211
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
There have already been many cases where people have refused drug tests and even took the employer to court and won due to it not being constitutional.
Really? Where? Do you have a link to any of the cases or articles on this? The only avenue I could think of would be suing an employer that did not consistently apply drug testing or where it was a violation of an employment contract. A Constitutional challenge against a private employer requiring a drug test would fail completely. I suggest you study up on the Constitution.
quote:
ORIGINAL: enter_address_here
Your employer has no right to control your personal life, but they do have a right to a certain amount of job performance.
An employer has the power to set conditions for employment and continued employment. They can fire you for violating these conditions, including conditions that occur outside of work. In most 'right-to-work' states they don't even need to be up front about this or show cause for firing you.
For the most part, I doubt most employers are interested in controlling what happens outside of the workplace, but there are some that choose to do so. I mentioned the insurance company that forced employees to quit smoking. Other employers have morality clauses in their contracts
< Message edited by SteveSund -- 3/9/2010 3:58:11 PM >
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 3:49:58 PM
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SteveSund
Posts: 211
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
So - you think that if you are a private employer you can violate the civil rights of your employees? You can discriminate against colors or religions or genders? You can disregard due process for search and siezures?
Dream on.
No, that would be against the law and not what I said at all. There are federal and state laws that prohibit employers from discriminating on the basis of religion, sex, and several other categories. There is no federal law that prevents an employer from requiring a drug test as a condition for continued employment. As for search and seizure, the 4th Amendment is only a prohibition on State actions, not the actions of private citizens. This is nothing new and not some kind of gray area. This has been the law of the land since the founding of this country.
Here is an example. An employer has a concern about workplace theft and orders all employee cars to be searched. The penalty for refusing is being fired. At no time do they have to show any kind of probable cause or obtain some kind of warrant. They could also order other kinds of searches.
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RE: Pass your drug test or forfeit your welfare check??? - 3/9/2010 5:03:46 PM
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SteveSund
Posts: 211
Joined: 11/8/2005
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
Isn't that the same concept as to bringing in dogs to schools to search for things, or metal detectors at school? I remember in high school we had multiple bomb threats and the dogs sniffed out our cars. It was tricky with some of the guys because it was hunting season and they all had their guns in their trucks, but with permits it was okay.
Public Schools are considered State entities, so the 4th amendment would apply to them. IIRC, there is somewhat of a lesser form of probable cause as it applies to schools, but there is still a reasonable expectation of privacy. On the other hand, private schools are not limited and have a great deal more discretion when it comes to conducting searches.
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