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Can the NT exist without the OT?
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| What is the relevance? |
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| yes |
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Total Votes : 50
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(last vote on : 5/26/2010 9:13:00 AM)
(Poll will run till: 1/1/2011 12:00:00 AM)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 8:06:38 PM
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prophet
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quote:
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).
i presume that Paul is refering to the OT as the word of God? 
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 8:24:40 PM
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Corne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Pleasse list some OT Passages (not repeated in the NT)without which a person cannot be a Christian?
Thanks
RC
Moot. Without them being in the OT, how can they be USED in the NT?
It depends on whether or not we are talking about the actual NT or an imaginary one.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 8:33:58 PM
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Corne
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Yes, but it's unclear here what is being asked. The real NT contains the OT pieces. A NT that does not would be a different NT.
Now what if God had not provided an OT? Then the NT would be complete. But that's an imaginary scenario too.
Can the NT as is stand alone with out the OT? My view is, it is not the best case scenario. It's not something that should be chosen. But if that's all we have, all we study, then yes, it actually contains all of the essential Truth.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 9:02:55 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
Yes, but it's unclear here what is being asked. The real NT contains the OT pieces. A NT that does not would be a different NT.
Now what if God had not provided an OT? Then the NT would be complete. But that's an imaginary scenario too.
Can the NT as is stand alone with out the OT? My view is, it is not the best case scenario. It's not something that should be chosen. But if that's all we have, all we study, then yes, it actually contains all of the essential Truth.
i said moot cos without the OT, many prophecies of the messiah would be non existant.
If non existent,
a) how does Jesus declare his missio
quote:
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
Without these prophecies as the basis of His fulfilment, how can one believe that He is the one? So no gospels.
a) how does Paul work out his theologies, and if he cant, there will no epistles.
So essentially, no NT! thereby its moot....its like saying a human being has no biological mother....
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 9:09:27 PM
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Corne
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If God had chosen to give only the NT, then He would have provided the necessary revelation. He chose to lay out the prophesies, types and shadows. The prophesies did not cause Jesus to be authentic. They showed that He was.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 9:40:48 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
The prophesies did not cause Jesus to be authentic. They showed that He was.
Thin line....of cause/effect. why do you think Matthew quoted prophecies in his gospel?
Like i said...its all moot as theres lots of if God did this, if God did that.
He did it....by revealing His plans through the prophetic nature of the OT without which wither what you believe?
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 10:06:58 PM
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Corne
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I think the thread question is faulty.
I'm not saying the prophesies are not important. Of course they are. They are authored by God. But Prophesies did not make Jesus God, or make Him savior. He was the I Am, the prophesies revealed that, did not cause that. That was God's chosen plan for revelation.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/7/2010 10:28:50 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
I think the thread question is faulty.
i agree with you! Its a MOOT question..... 
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/8/2010 4:09:08 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
If God had chosen to give only the NT, then He would have provided the necessary revelation. He chose to lay out the prophesies, types and shadows. The prophesies did not cause Jesus to be authentic. They showed that He was.
If Adonai had chosen to provide no written record, then He would have provided the necessary revelation. He chose to have the Apostles lay out the historical records and epistles, testimonies and commentaries. The historical records and epistles did not cause Yeshua to be authentic. They showed that He was.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/8/2010 5:03:50 PM
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Corne
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/8/2010 5:23:51 PM
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Bluethread
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The point being, if defines sufficiency based on whether Adonai Yeshua can be revealed using it, anything is sufficient. In fact, one can say that Adonai Yeshua can be revealed without any of the Scriptures. I believe that is not the way it usually occurs, but it is possible. Therefore, this is not a sound argument for the suffiency of the Apistolic Writings.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/8/2010 5:27:35 PM
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Corne
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Did you actually read my post? oy.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/8/2010 5:52:20 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
As I have pointed out, I have been speaking to a specific perspective of believers. Not to the issue of seekers.
Because we are believers we are also seekers... until the day we die because not a one of us can say that he knows it all.
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/8/2010 5:53:56 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
I think the thread question is faulty.
i agree with you! Its a MOOT question.....
Apparently not for some like rcjames.
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/8/2010 6:01:42 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1880
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
As I have pointed out, I have been speaking to a specific perspective of believers. Not to the issue of seekers.
Because we are believers we are also seekers... until the day we die because not a one of us can say that he knows it all.
It's not about "knowing it all", it's about knowing the Source, and the fundamental difference in having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/8/2010 6:27:45 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If Adonai had chosen to provide no written record, then He would have provided the necessary revelation. He chose to have the Apostles lay out the historical records and epistles, testimonies and commentaries. The historical records and epistles did not cause Yeshua to be authentic. They showed that He was.
He did. Its called the OT?
Cause and effect again?
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/9/2010 2:46:56 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If Adonai had chosen to provide no written record, then He would have provided the necessary revelation. He chose to have the Apostles lay out the historical records and epistles, testimonies and commentaries. The historical records and epistles did not cause Yeshua to be authentic. They showed that He was.
He did. Its called the OT?
Cause and effect again?
I was mimicing Cornes post regarding what would have happened had the Tanach not existed. Maybe I misunderstood, but it appeared the point of that post was to show that the Apistolic Writings can stand alone, because Adonai Yeshua's true identity is not dependant upon the Tanach. My point was that, if one were to take that position, one could just as well say none of the Scriptures are required, because Adonai Yeshua's true dentity is not dependant on any of them. It is not Adonai Yeshua's true identity that is in question here, but how we know of Adonai Yeshua's true identity. In that case, the Apistolic Writings do not stand alone, because without the Tanach one gets less than all of the information we have about the true identity of Adonai Yeshua.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have erred and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/9/2010 12:25:34 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1880
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I was mimicing Cornes post regarding what would have happened had the Tanach not existed. Maybe I misunderstood, but it appeared the point of that post was to show that the Apistolic Writings can stand alone, because Adonai Yeshua's true identity is not dependant upon the Tanach. My point was that, if one were to take that position, one could just as well say none of the Scriptures are required, because Adonai Yeshua's true dentity is not dependant on any of them. It is not Adonai Yeshua's true identity that is in question here, but how we know of Adonai Yeshua's true identity. In that case, the Apistolic Writings do not stand alone, because without the Tanach one gets less than all of the information we have about the true identity of Adonai Yeshua.
Yes, you misunderstood. I was responding to a what if. What if the OT had never BEEN WRITTEN.
If that were the case, God would have set up something else of His own choosing to reveal Christ's identity. Because...here comes the point...Christ is not formed or tested by the scriptures, He is revealed.
Christs' identity post birth, life death and resurrection is now Quite possible to confirm without the OT.
BUT it's a mistake for believers to chose to put aside the OT. It is part of God's word and is meant to be known.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/9/2010 3:08:34 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I was mimicing Cornes post regarding what would have happened had the Tanach not existed. Maybe I misunderstood, but it appeared the point of that post was to show that the Apostles Writings can stand alone, because Adonai Yeshua's true identity is not dependant upon the Tanach. My point was that, if one were to take that position, one could just as well say none of the Scriptures are required, because Adonai Yeshua's true dentity is not dependant on any of them. It is not Adonai Yeshua's true identity that is in question here, but how we know of Adonai Yeshua's true identity. In that case, the Apostles Writings do not stand alone, because without the Tanach one gets less than all of the information we have about the true identity of Adonai Yeshua.
Yes, you misunderstood. I was responding to a what if. What if the OT had never BEEN WRITTEN.
If that were the case, God would have set up something else of His own choosing to reveal Christ's identity. Because...here comes the point...Christ is not formed or tested by the scriptures, He is revealed.
Christs' identity post birth, life death and resurrection is now Quite possible to confirm without the OT.
BUT it's a mistake for believers to chose to put aside the OT. It is part of God's word and is meant to be known.
While I agree with you that Yeshua the Messiah is revealed through the OT... For some (not all of which are Jews) our perspective of Yeshua should and indeed must be able to stand up to the scrutiny of the OT.
For example... G-d doesn't change, right?
Then, " why is there a vengeful, Cantankerous, god of Absolute truth who is so dang blood thirsty in the OT? and why does he all of a sudden CHANGE into this god who is all love and let's us get away with everything in the NT?" I speak as some who believe and some who don't believe. Is this not the confusion that is sown by the warping of Pauline Letters and indeed the entire Bible in the Christian Doctrine of the RCC and other denominations?
Isn't the OT the most powerful witness of Yeshua's Identity? Isn't this why it was quoted so extensively in the NT, including many passages of the OT which are not easily seen in the English Versions of the NT we have today?
Some are not even quoted but are given in a round about way by alluding to customs and such which are to be found in the OT.
Isn't it true that, without a firm knowledge of the work G-d did to gain attention of the world through the Ancient Israelites (of whom the Jews are a remnant if not the only ones left of them) one cannot fully understand who Yeshua was?
that's my two cents.
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/9/2010 3:21:33 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1880
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Isn't it true that, without a firm knowledge of the work G-d did to gain attention of the world through the Ancient Israelites (of whom the Jews are a remnant if not the only ones left of them) one cannot fully understand who Yeshua was?
that's my two cents.
Yes, AND no. We come to Christ as spiritual babes. The pre-knowledge of who He is in a historical sense often comes after becoming a follower. The expectation of a FOLLOWER is to increase in knowledge and understanding.
Do many, especially Jews come to understand who Christ is THROUGH the OT? Yes.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/9/2010 3:33:55 PM
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Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Posts: 481
Joined: 12/8/2009
From: many places
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
Isn't it true that, without a firm knowledge of the work G-d did to gain attention of the world through the Ancient Israelites (of whom the Jews are a remnant if not the only ones left of them) one cannot fully understand who Yeshua was?
that's my two cents.
Yes, AND no. We come to Christ as spiritual babes. The pre-knowledge of who He is in a historical sense often comes after becoming a follower. The expectation of a FOLLOWER is to increase in knowledge and understanding.
Do many, especially Jews come to understand who Christ is THROUGH the OT? Yes.
You might do better with the Rabbinical response... LOL... "it depends".
_____________________________
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 6:4-9
Vaiyikra (Leviticus) 19:18
Beresheet (Genesis) 12:1-3, 15:4-6, 15:18-21, 17:1-27, 25:21-26
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28
Tehillim (Psalms) 137
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/9/2010 6:38:38 PM
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prophet
Posts: 806
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If Adonai had chosen to provide no written record, then He would have provided the necessary revelation. He chose to have the Apostles lay out the historical records and epistles, testimonies and commentaries. The historical records and epistles did not cause Yeshua to be authentic. They showed that He was.
He did. Its called the OT?
Cause and effect again?
I was mimicing Cornes post regarding what would have happened had the Tanach not existed. Maybe I misunderstood, but it appeared the point of that post was to show that the Apistolic Writings can stand alone, because Adonai Yeshua's true identity is not dependant upon the Tanach. My point was that, if one were to take that position, one could just as well say none of the Scriptures are required, because Adonai Yeshua's true dentity is not dependant on any of them. It is not Adonai Yeshua's true identity that is in question here, but how we know of Adonai Yeshua's true identity. In that case, the Apistolic Writings do not stand alone, because without the Tanach one gets less than all of the information we have about the true identity of Adonai Yeshua.
i agree to a certain extent.
Without the Tanakh, theres no way of identifying Adonai Yeshua! End of.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Can the NT stand on it's own without the OT? - 3/9/2010 6:41:25 PM
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prophet
Posts: 806
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lochem_Eved_lAdonai
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
i agree with you! Its a MOOT question.....
Apparently not for some like rcjames.
I think it is a valid question and the answer is YES the NT can stand on its own to guide a person to the Cross, obtain salvation, lead a Holy and Sanctified life by the Grace of God, the Sacrifice of Christ, the Ministry of the Holy Spirit, and the truth and promises of that New Testament, look forward with full expectation towards eternity in Heaven.
And this is more than possible without ever cracking open the Old Testament.
Thanks
RC
Then answer this: without the OT, how do you identify Jesus as the CHrist?
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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