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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/8/2010 9:04:16 PM
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Milliecat
Posts: 1160
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
LOL. Let's see what some real socialists think:
Greg Pason, National Secretary of the Socialist Party USA: “Barack Obama's programs are not socialist. The vast majority of his proposals are anti-worker (or he might say ‘pro-business’). His health care proposals are more to save the for-profit insurance industry and do not have the goal of ending for-profit insurance. He has refused to support a Senate version of HR676, which would create a single-payer program (not socialist but much better than we have, and [which has] the support of labor and community organizations across the US). Many of his other economic proposals are pro-corporate.
A socialist program (even a reformist one) would not be a program that props up capitalism when it fails, but one that transforms the economy. None of Senator Obama's proposals do that. Senator Obama’s tax plan is regressive and even less ‘progressive’ than programs put forward under such conservative administrations like the one of Richard Nixon.”
F.N. Brill, National Secretary of the World Socialist Party (US): “Obama is as much a socialist as the Pope is an atheist. Income redistribution isn't a socialist act. It might aid in ameliorating income disparities within a capitalist economy for a limited time. But the logic of capitalism demands the rich grow richer (more capitalization is needed) and the poor grow poorer (their work creates the needed capital used by the rich).”
David Schaich, Socialist Party Campaign Clearinghouse Coordinator: “The idea that Barack Obama is socialist, or quasi-socialist, or semi-socialist, or socialist-light, or anything of the sort, is far-right nonsense. Barack Obama, like John McCain, is very much a ‘politician as usual,’fully committed to the continuation of the capitalist system and the expansion of its empire.”
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28645
Hmm. Not much love lost there.
So, do you think they would admit that he is a Socialist? I mean, if a president were trying to change a country to a Socialist form of government, do you think he or other socialists would want the people to know it? Especially here, where people are attached to their freedoms, to capitalism and to their Constitution?
I especially liked the one about wealth redistribution.  Wealth redistribution is Marxist. It might work for a "short time in a capitalist society", except that the plan is "CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN", right? Socialism. It won't work even for a short time in a capitalist society because society is then no longer capitalist. Gov't takeovers of banks, car companies and now healthcare. It'll keep coming and three years from now, we won't recognize our country. If I'm wrong, you can make fun of me right here three years from now. But then you make fun of me now, since you so much smarter. 
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/8/2010 11:11:29 PM
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tacitus
Posts: 2304
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Read what they say. They're not lying about the things Obama is doing, and they are quite adamant that the things he is doing is not socialism.
And you are wrong about your three examples anyway:
1) Taking over the banks -- he bailed out the banks (well Bush did and Obama continued the policy). There was no take over.
2) Car Companies -- he did take over two failing car companies that would have gone bankrupt and impacted a lot of livelihoods. You can disagree with that policy if you want, but you know as well as I do that it has always been the plan to refloat GM and Chrysler on the stock market as soon as possible:
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/the-hottest-ipo-of-2010-gm.aspx
Pray tell me what is socialist about a GM IPO. It is the exact antithesis of socialism. It is the very thing that all British socialists fought tooth and nail to prevent during Thatcher's wholesale privatization of British industry during the 80s.
It's a very clever plan indeed if you can bring about socialism by doing the very opposite of what socialists would do!
3) The current health care plan isn't a government take over of private health care. Every single part of the private health care industry that is private today will still be completely in private hands tomorrow. The bill is really only health insurance reform. There is nothing in the bill as it presently stands in the Senate that makes any doctor, or any hospital, or any private insurer move from private ownership to government ownership. Yes, there is going to be more regulation, but it doesn't shift any assets into the hands of the government, which is the hallmark of true socialist policy.
Sure you think it's a bad idea, and I fully agree that heavier regulation is a less conservative and more liberal policy (and one I agree with), but it ain't socialism, not by a very very very very very long way.
As for three years from now -- well, the banks will have repaid most of the TARP money, GM and Chrysler will be public companies with private shareholders again, and, if the health insurance reform bill passes, some of the provisions in the bill will finally be about ready to come on stream (almost nothing will be done in the first two years.)
So, I would be shocked if your day-to-day life, or just about anyone's day-to-day life would be noticeably different from today in any shape or form. I will probably have the same lousy private health insurance as I do today, in fact -- except I'll probably be paying twice as much as I do now 
I haven't a clue what you are expecting to see in three years time -- I'd be interested to find out, if you're willing.
Oh, and I'll promise not to make fun of you three years down the line, though I might reserve the right of saying "Told you so!"
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/11/2010 9:26:10 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 3005
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
2) Car Companies -- he did take over two failing car companies that would have gone bankrupt and impacted a lot of livelihoods. You can disagree with that policy if you want, but you know as well as I do that it has always been the plan to refloat GM and Chrysler on the stock market as soon as possible:
I've tried to explain this before. It seems fairly clear to me, but since I'm a finance geek / econo-geek / bank geek it really should or I won't be doing my job very well.
The auto takeover was really one of necessity. It wasn't a question of political philosophy at all - just a pragmatic reality.
In a normal economy with a functioning capital allocation (i.e banking / investment banking) system, GM would have declared bankruptcy and either liquidated (if there were no particular value left as a restructured company) or restructured (if the restructured company could be made viable again.)
GM in this case has a viable manufacturing capacity and legitimate economic position - it just had a terrible cost and capital structure. Those things can be fixed in bankruptcy.
To restructure a company, there is nearly always a short term funding or borrowing need. Normally a consortium of lenders is put together and a loan package is structured for the bankrupt company. When the company exits bankruptcy, those loans are paid off and the newly re-formed company can again have access to normal capital markets.
That all falls apart when the banking system is in crisis. Despite the fact that GM could be profitably restructured, absent a loan package from someone, GM would have been forced to liquidate. That would have resulted in completely unnecessary destruction of jobs, incomes, and productive manufacturing capacity.
Since there was no one in a position to lend GM the billions of necessary dollars, the government stepped in.
IMO, stepping in to salvage some value when regular capitalistic mechanisms have one of their periodic meltdowns is a perfectly legitimate government action, even in a capitalistic society.
Capitalism isn't perfect. Governments aren't perfect. Sometimes one or the other has to invade the other one's turf once in a while to keep things humming smoothly.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/11/2010 11:29:40 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 3005
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Spoken like a good socialist. Is your kool-aid red? 
-Dan.
I hate kool-aid. Anything you have to make with a chemistry set shouldn't be sold as a beverage.
I do, however, have a really nice brandy that's kind of a reddish-brown.
Goes great with dark chocolate.
BT
PS - I'm so confused. Red states are capitalists & republicans, which is fine until people talk about socialists being red. I thought the communists were red, but everyone tells me they were pinko's. Democrats are supposed to be blue, but now everyone says they're red (or pink, depending).
Is it just me or is the world wearing rose-colored glasses?
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/12/2010 12:40:47 AM
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tacitus
Posts: 2304
Joined: 5/12/2005
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Well, I'm British, and where I come from, the left wing Labour Party are red, and the right wing Conservatives are true Tory blue. Even after 16 years in the USA, I still have a hard time equating "red states" with hard core conservatism.
Thanks for the additional comments, BTW, but I don't think it matters a jot to some people what the blatantly obvious (in this case) truth is behind Obama's actions. They don't want to know. It doesn't matter how many capitalists are excited by the impending IPO of GM, or that it is glaringly obvious to anyone who actually understood socialism/Marxism that last thing any hardcore socialist would do would be to make plans to refloat a core industrial business right after you had the perfect pretext for taking it over.
Actually, I don't recall anyone trying to explain this one away. They just say resort to conspiracy theories and decades-old murky allegations instead, as if that had more weight than putting a multi-billion dollar government asset (as GM is at this moment) back into private hands.
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/12/2010 7:46:37 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3528
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
I do, however, have a really nice brandy that's kind of a reddish-brown.
Goes great with dark chocolate.
nice. 
quote:
PS - I'm so confused. Red states are capitalists & republicans, which is fine until people talk about socialists being red. I thought the communists were red, but everyone tells me they were pinko's. Democrats are supposed to be blue, but now everyone says they're red (or pink, depending).
I've always been told that Dems are yellow. 
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/12/2010 11:39:10 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 3005
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
I've always been told that Dems are yellow.
-Dan.
Brain twister - then what color is the Green Party????????
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/12/2010 12:39:12 PM
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ElmerFishpaw
Posts: 60
Joined: 7/18/2007
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RC James, come on, really low brow and not becoming of a Preacher.
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"Aurora Borealis is Latin for flying saucer headlights"
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/12/2010 9:50:28 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 3005
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ElmerFishpaw
RC James, come on, really low brow and not becoming of a Preacher.
Oh, not that bad. My wife's comments are usually much worse.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/12/2010 11:09:01 PM
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Marcus.
Posts: 2755
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Minnesota
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During the Cold War, red was associated with communists and blue with the Western democracies. I haven't been able to accept the recent turn around of the colors.
_____________________________
4000 years ago or so God signed a blood oath with Abraham. 2000 years ago Jesus fulfilled that oath. We are freed by a violent grace. Only One with a great love for those who He knew to be guilty would accept their fate Himself.
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/13/2010 6:46:41 PM
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litfire2000
Posts: 714
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
During the Cold War, red was associated with communists and blue with the Western democracies. I haven't been able to accept the recent turn around of the colors.
I haven't either Marcus. Do you know who started this red and blue thing?
_____________________________
Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
Many people desire to serve God in the capacity of an advisor
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/14/2010 12:47:09 AM
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tacitus
Posts: 2304
Joined: 5/12/2005
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Apparently much of the blame for the recent turn around lays at the feet of Tim Russert, RIP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states_and_blue_states
It's a very interesting article -- and probably contains far more information about the issue that most people would ever want to know!
I, for one, never realized that the current color coding is only a decade old.
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/15/2010 9:09:57 AM
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ken1906_4
Posts: 103
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Maryland
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I know this is maybe a little off the subject, I hear all this stuff about president obama being a marxist/socialist, a communist and a fascist equated to hitler. So which one is he? All 3 cannot co-exist in the same space. I'm a little confused, seriously. People are throwing out all types a terms to define the president so I am just wondering has there been a consensus of which one of these terms fit.
_____________________________
On August 28, 2010 Glen Beck and his ilk will attempt to make a mockery of a monument day in not only black history, but in American history by reinterpreting Dr. King's dream to suit their needs. They have no shame.
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/15/2010 4:05:56 PM
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tacitus
Posts: 2304
Joined: 5/12/2005
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Ken, haven't you heard? It turns out that all the fascists like Hitler and Mussolini were socialists all along -- they just fooled everyone into believing they were right-wing extremists -- at least that's according to amateur right-wing historians with an axe to grind.
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/15/2010 5:36:06 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2589
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sirmixalot
It would by my hope that by the next election we would have more diverse spectrum of political parties and candidates to choose from. It wouldnt hurt to have a socialist on the ballot.
There's usually at least one on the ballot. They may not have a snowballs chance of winning a fraction of a fraction of a percentage point but many parties are usually on the ballot.
_____________________________
Stephanie
A heart at peace gives life to the body, but envy rots the bones. ~~Proverbs 14:30 NIV~~
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/15/2010 7:19:28 PM
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Milliecat
Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/13/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
I know this is maybe a little off the subject, I hear all this stuff about president obama being a marxist/socialist, a communist and a fascist equated to hitler. So which one is he? All 3 cannot co-exist in the same space. I'm a little confused, seriously. People are throwing out all types a terms to define the president so I am just wondering has there been a consensus of which one of these terms fit.
You might want to read Obama's books and/or some books written about him and decide for yourself. You might want to study his policies and what he believes in and who he has appointed to work in his administration. You also might want to read "The Communist Manifesto" written by Karl Marx. I know it is a lot, but well worth the time. In my opinion, Obama is not a fascist, but you can decide for yourself.
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/16/2010 1:49:18 AM
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tacitus
Posts: 2304
Joined: 5/12/2005
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*Sigh*
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RE: KUHNER: The United Socialist States of America - 3/17/2010 12:12:42 AM
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relady
Posts: 637
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Tac, you might as well walk to the nearest brick wall and bang your head against it. You'll probably get a more favorable result. Sadly.
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