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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/21/2010 6:41:01 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
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quote:
Zebach TWOT - 525a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
zeh'-bakh Noun Masculine
Definition
sacrifice
sacrifices of righteousness
sacrifices of strife
sacrifices to dead things
the covenant sacrifice
the passover
annual sacrifice
thank offering
You've provided nothing more than a translation of the Hebrew into the word "sacrifice." A translation IS NOT a definition. The word "sacrifice" cannot be used to define itself. It is defined by other words and ideas.
I provided the definition Miriam Webster's offers. You provided a translation. They are two different things.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/21/2010 7:17:30 PM
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Stormcrow
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quote:
Neither do the scriptures under discussion tell us the tribulation begins in 30 A.D. This is your opinion.
The tribulation began with the stoning of Stephen. Read Acts:
quote:
Now Saul was consenting to his death. At that time a great persecution (diogmos) arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison. Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word. Acts 8:1-4 (NKJV)
Later in Acts, Luke writes of the persecution the church was facing that began with the stoning of Stephen again, but uses a different Greek word for "persecution:
quote:
Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution 2347 (thlipsis) that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. Act 11:19
Diogmos is Greek for persecution. Thlipsis is more commonly translated "tribulation" but is also translated in the verse cited above as "persecution."
Here is what the respective Greek words mean:
quote:
Below are the results of the LexiConc search using your criteria. (More Info) There are 3 LexiConc entries that match "persecution."
Strongs New Testament (Greek) for "persecution"
G1375 diōgmos dē-ōg-mo's persecution
G1377 diōkō dē-ō'-kō persecute, follow after, follow, suffer persecution, misc
G2347 thlipsis thlē'-psēs tribulation, affliction, trouble, anguish, persecution, burdened, to be afflicted
It's clear from the book of Acts that the "great persecution" began with the stoning of Stephen and continues through this day. The days of the "great tribulation" the Jews faced in Jerusalem during its siege were numbered. (The siege itself lasted only...drum roll please...3.5 years culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple!). The tribulation (pressure: thlipsis) associated with persecution (diogmos) continues for both Christians and Jews and began with the stoning of Stephen. Look at Revelation 12:
"And the dragon was enraged with the woman (Israel, the one who gave birth to Christ), and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17 (NKJV)
Revelation 12 is a look back at the events that led to the persecution of the woman (Israel) and her offspring (Christians and believing Jews).
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/21/2010 8:03:18 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
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quote:
Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution 2347 (thlipsis) that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. Act 11:19
Greek Strong's Number: 2347
Greek Word: θλῖψις
Transliteration: thlipsis
Phonetic Pronunciation:thlip'-sis
Root: from <G2346>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 3:139,334
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Afflict, Affliction, Anguish, Distress, Distressed, Tribulation, Trouble
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
tribulation 21
affliction 17
trouble 3
anguish 1
persecution 1
burdened 1
to be afflicted + <G1519> 1
[Total Count: 45]
from <G2346> (thlibo); pressure (literal or figurative) :- afflicted (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
By the way, this same word "thlipsis" in Acts 11:19 translated "persecution" in the KJV, also appears in the following passages in the Literal Bible:
Matthew 24:9,21,29, Mark 13:19,24, Acts 7:10-11, Acts:11-19, Acts 14:22, Acts 20:24, 2Corinthians 4:17, Colossians 1:24, 1Thessalonians 1:6, 1Thessalonians 3:3, 2Thessalonians 1:4,6, Hebrews 10:33, James 1:25, Revelation 1:9, Revelation 2:9-10,22, Revelation 7:14.
In each of these cases, the word is translated (in the Literal Bible), "affliction."
The word "thlipsis" is translated as "tribulation" in the Literal Bible only once:
Romans 8:35.
It's translated "distress" in the following passages:
John 16:21,33.
The word "diogmos" in the Literal Bible is translated "persecution" in the following passages:
Matthew 13:21, Mark 4:17, Mark 10:30, Acts 8:8, Acts 13:50, 2Corinthians 12:10, 2Thessalonians 1:4, 2Timothy 3:11 (twice).
Now, do your homework and read each of the passages listed above and notice the context in which each was written and then show me where this 'tribulation", "affliction", "persecution" or "distress" is only supposed to last 7 or 3.5 years.
Prove it.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/21/2010 9:56:56 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 225
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
The tribulation began with the stoning of Stephen.
Jesus said the Great Tribulation will begin with the midpoint abomination desolation spoken of by Daniel.
Between you and Jesus, your starting point is in error.
A lot of commentators on eschatology like to say: "It's clear this means..." but all they're really saying is that is what they have concluded.
Like I said, your "clear" start doesn't match with Jesus' words, and He being The Word, is the truth, and so your take is "clearly" a falsehood in comparison. And that pretty much sums up what I think of all the various Preterist takes on history too - they don't match with prophecy. The Great Tribulation will be more terrible than anything the ancient Romans did. The modern Romans we have can be just as mean and being that they are much more sophisticated the results can be much greater - indeed, the greatest time of persecution the world will see.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/21/2010 10:03:33 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 225
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
Now, do your homework and read each of the passages listed above and notice the context in which each was written and then show me where this 'tribulation", "affliction", "persecution" or "distress" is only supposed to last 7 or 3.5 years.
Prove it.
The Great Tribulation cannot be proved to be either 7 years long or three and a half prophetic years long.
By only starting at the midpoint abomination desolation of Daniel 9:27, the Great Tribulation cannot possibly be seven years long because half of that time will have already passed.
Furthermore, the Great Tribulation is shorter than half of the one 'seven' because Jesus said those days, referring to the last object being discussed, the Great Tribulation, will be shortened; i.e., they don't run the whole of the rest of the one 'seven' after their start at the midpoint.
How long can you go without food and water while evil people are hunting you down to "test" you: asking if you will worship the talking image of the ruler who will come, or not?
Those days will be shortened before all the Elect succumb to death. Some of us will be alive and we will be left to see Jesus coming on the clouds with the multitude of Saints He will resurrect from Paradise, a level of Heaven beyond this natural world.
So there, I proved it.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/21/2010 10:43:37 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 810
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Shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
Now, do your homework and read each of the passages listed above and notice the context in which each was written and then show me where this 'tribulation", "affliction", "persecution" or "distress" is only supposed to last 7 or 3.5 years.
Prove it.
The Great Tribulation cannot be proved to be either 7 years long or three and a half prophetic years long.
By only starting at the midpoint abomination desolation of Daniel 9:27, the Great Tribulation cannot possibly be seven years long because half of that time will have already passed.
Furthermore, the Great Tribulation is shorter than half of the one 'seven' because Jesus said those days, referring to the last object being discussed, the Great Tribulation, will be shortened; i.e., they don't run the whole of the rest of the one 'seven' after their start at the midpoint.
How long can you go without food and water while evil people are hunting you down to "test" you: asking if you will worship the talking image of the ruler who will come, or not?
Those days will be shortened before all the Elect succumb to death. Some of us will be alive and we will be left to see Jesus coming on the clouds with the multitude of Saints He will resurrect from Paradise, a level of Heaven beyond this natural world.
So there, I proved it.
You've proved it? I don't think so.
The Tribulation (Greek: "thlipsis" = "pressure" or "stress") is neither 7 years long nor 3 1/2 years long. It is about 2000 years long! It is the time period that God's "chosen ones" or "elect" (Greek: "tous eklektous" = "called out ones") are to be put under pressure or stress as they are hounded from city to city and country to country until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH," "We welcome the Comer in the name (or on the authority) of YHVH."
Get that part right, and the rest will fall into place.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/21/2010 11:29:55 PM
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Sinner-Saint
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Occam's razor again Roy.
The Great Tribulation is set in the context of the one 'seven,' not two thousand years of the Church Age, and furthermore, Jesus said it would be shortened.
How you continue to delude yourself that that means its is lengthened way beyond the one 'seven' is beyond me.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/21/2010 11:49:18 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
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quote:
Jesus said the Great Tribulation will begin with the midpoint abomination desolation spoken of by Daniel.
Please provide the passage where He specifically said this as you have recounted it. Do so without layering your own eschatology on top of it.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/21/2010 11:51:38 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
Those days will be shortened before all the Elect succumb to death. Some of us will be alive and we will be left to see Jesus coming on the clouds with the multitude of Saints He will resurrect from Paradise, a level of Heaven beyond this natural world.
So there, I proved it.
You didn't read a single passage I posted, did you?
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/21/2010 11:52:39 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
The Great Tribulation is set in the context of the one 'seven,'
Prove it using scripture and only scripture.
By the way, there is no event or time period in the Bible known by the proper noun as the "Great Tribulation."
That's something pulled completely out of context by "futurists."
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 6/22/2010 12:09:18 AM >
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 1:39:15 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 424
Joined: 4/12/2005
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There is no scriptural reference to a 2,000 year tribulation period, and if so that these days were to be shortened. Absolutely no Biblical support for this premise. No Biblical support saying that the Churches tribulation began with Stephen stoning. Absolutely false. For it started with individual believers being rejected by the Jewish leaders. The first martyr was Stephen.
Really scripture (prophecy) does not depict a shortening of the number of days.
Dan 12:11 - From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished, and the A/D is set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. Rev 12:6 - The women fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
These are unfulfilled prophecies. They must be 100 per cent accurate. From the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the A/D is set up; three prophetic numbers of days are disclosed, being 1,260 days, another 30 days and then another 45 days. These are set in concrete, for they are all prophetic time periods, they cannot be changed.
So as I have stated before, it is the length of daylight during those days that are shortened. Gen 1:3 - And God said let there be light, and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness, God called the light "day", and the darkness he call 'night", and there was evening and there was morning of the first day.
Matt 24:29,30 - Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn.
Zech 13:1 - On that day a fountain will be opened up to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity. Dan 9: 24 - Seventy sevens have been decreed for your people and your holy city to. 1. Finish transgression, 2. to put an end to sin, 3. to atone for wickedness, 4. to bring in everlasting righteousness, 5. to seal up vision and prophecy, 6. to anoint the most holy.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 9:23:20 AM
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Sinner-Saint
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
The Great Tribulation is set in the context of the one 'seven,'
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
Prove it using scripture and only scripture.
By the way, there is no event or time period in the Bible known by the proper noun as the "Great Tribulation."
That's something pulled completely out of context by "futurists."
The problem here is that I'm dealing with a Preterist, not that I'm a "futurist." The very nature of prophecy is that it is future oriented: God tells us what will happen before it happens. Only God can know the future. Prophecy and miracles are the signature thumbprint of God and what brought this one-time atheist around to believe in Jesus.
MT 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel..."
The abomination is spoken three times in Daniel's book, once by Gabriel, and twice by the Man in Linen.
- The specific language of the Hebrew has Dan 9:27 as the worst (-im being added to the "abomination") future time and it is set in the one 'seven;'
- Daniel 11:31 being the lens of dual focus describing "a" (ha- in the Hebrew) specific abomination (set in the sixty-two 'sevens') which portends and foreshadows the future end-time instance. It first comes in Daniel's near-term with Antiochus in 168 B.C. and then the Man in Linen (Jesus) switches the prophecy to the long-term end-times (Dual Focus); and,
- Daniel 12:11 which is a generic reference (siqqus and somen being in its most generic linguistic form).
After giving three sentences for those in Judea (a future reference for the remnant Jews who will flee) Jesus turns back to addressing the linear progression of events which will precede His parousia:
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.
The time of Great Tribulation is a specific and unique time period because Jesus defines it as being unequaled.
It comes AFTER the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27.
We can also see the one-two aspect of this time in Revelation chapter 13 with the talking image (an abomination) being set up (in the Temple according to Paul in 2Th 2) and then two onerous laws which no true Christian can obey in verse 15 through 17.
Then Jesus says - right after introducing the Great Tribulation specific and unique period of time:
22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
After giving us some detail about that time, Jesus then concludes the time of the Great Tribulation and He reveals that it is cut short -amputated- in the Greek as one "docks" an animal's tail with a description of the Day of the Lord - which is WHEN He returns:
MT 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
So I can prove what I say, from the Bible, and it was Jesus who set it in the one 'seven' with verse 15.
You won't accept it because you'll hold onto your own thinking no matter what.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 9:38:30 AM
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NotreDame
Posts: 346
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
Zebach TWOT - 525a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
zeh'-bakh Noun Masculine
Definition
sacrifice
sacrifices of righteousness
sacrifices of strife
sacrifices to dead things
the covenant sacrifice
the passover
annual sacrifice
thank offering
You've provided nothing more than a translation of the Hebrew into the word "sacrifice." A translation IS NOT a definition. The word "sacrifice" cannot be used to define itself. It is defined by other words and ideas.
I provided the definition Miriam Webster's offers. You provided a translation. They are two different things.
Regardless, you are presuming the Webster's meaning is the Hebrew meaning and this is not at all clear. Seeking to provide meaning for a Hebrew word by focusing upoin middle English, Anglo-French, and Latin origins of the word is problematic.
You have to show the middle English, Anglo-French, and Latin origins/meaning of the word is similar to or identical to the Hebrew meaning and you have not done this at all.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 1:56:23 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
Regardless, you are presuming the Webster's meaning is the Hebrew meaning and this is not at all clear. Seeking to provide meaning for a Hebrew word by focusing upoin middle English, Anglo-French, and Latin origins of the word is problematic.
So what we've come to is this:
quote:
"Sacrifice." It means: '1 : an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the killing of a victim on an altar...'"
"'Zebach' is the Hebrew word for 'sacrifice'. 'Sacrifice' comes from a Latin word and I reject ANY definition that is NOT provided in the original Hebrew!"
"OK, so what's the definition in Hebrew?"
"Sacrifice!"
That's literally the argument you've just presented! You refuse to accept the universally accepted denotative meanings of an English word translated - by your own source - from the Hebrew! The word "sacrifice either means what it does or it doesn't! And if it doesn't, then there's really no point in trying to understand ANY word translated from Hebrew, because most of us "English-as-first-language" speakers DON'T READ OR WRITE HEBREW!
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 2:31:06 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 346
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
Now, do your homework and read each of the passages listed above and notice the context in which each was written and then show me where this 'tribulation", "affliction", "persecution" or "distress" is only supposed to last 7 or 3.5 years.
Prove it.
The Great Tribulation cannot be proved to be either 7 years long or three and a half prophetic years long.
By only starting at the midpoint abomination desolation of Daniel 9:27, the Great Tribulation cannot possibly be seven years long because half of that time will have already passed.
Furthermore, the Great Tribulation is shorter than half of the one 'seven' because Jesus said those days, referring to the last object being discussed, the Great Tribulation, will be shortened; i.e., they don't run the whole of the rest of the one 'seven' after their start at the midpoint.
How long can you go without food and water while evil people are hunting you down to "test" you: asking if you will worship the talking image of the ruler who will come, or not?
Those days will be shortened before all the Elect succumb to death. Some of us will be alive and we will be left to see Jesus coming on the clouds with the multitude of Saints He will resurrect from Paradise, a level of Heaven beyond this natural world.
So there, I proved it.
You've proved it? I don't think so.
The Tribulation (Greek: "thlipsis" = "pressure" or "stress") is neither 7 years long nor 3 1/2 years long. It is about 2000 years long! It is the time period that God's "chosen ones" or "elect" (Greek: "tous eklektous" = "called out ones") are to be put under pressure or stress as they are hounded from city to city and country to country until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH," "We welcome the Comer in the name (or on the authority) of YHVH."
Get that part right, and the rest will fall into place.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Fantastic theory not supported by the text of Matthew. Jesus never remarked the elect, the chosen ones, collectively the descendents of the House of Jacob, i.e. the Jews, are to experience pressure or stress for 2,000 years.
Rather, Jesus' own remarks about the stress and pressure of the elect begins in verse 15 of the 24th chapter in the book of Matthew.
15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand ), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back *to get his cloak.
19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days ! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever *will. 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no *life would have been saved ; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Jesus did not express his remarks as a conditional of if X, then Y. If your flight is on the Sabbath or in the winter, then there will be a great tribulation. Jesus did not express his remarks at all in this manner and it makes no sense to impose a conditional upon a text when it is conspicuously lacking.
Rather, it seems the great tribulation begins simultaneously with the abomination desolation and the fleeing, or shortly after one or the other or both. Jesus' use of the words "for then" supports this interpretation.
Furthermore, the persecution which precedes verse 15 is narrowly applied to those for his "name sake." This did not apply generally to Jews when Jesus spoke, in 30 A.D., or today. Hence, these remarks by Jesus cannot possibly be in reference to any pressure or stress experienced by Jews since 30 A.D.
I fail to see where exactly these verses support the idea of a tribulation experienced by the Jews for 2,000 years?
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 2:34:16 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 346
Joined: 4/14/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
Regardless, you are presuming the Webster's meaning is the Hebrew meaning and this is not at all clear. Seeking to provide meaning for a Hebrew word by focusing upoin middle English, Anglo-French, and Latin origins of the word is problematic.
So what we've come to is this:
quote:
"Sacrifice." It means: '1 : an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the killing of a victim on an altar...'"
"'Zebach' is the Hebrew word for 'sacrifice'. 'Sacrifice' comes from a Latin word and I reject ANY definition that is NOT provided in the original Hebrew!"
"OK, so what's the definition in Hebrew?"
"Sacrifice!"
That's literally the argument you've just presented! You refuse to accept the universally accepted denotative meanings of an English word translated - by your own source - from the Hebrew! The word "sacrifice either means what it does or it doesn't! And if it doesn't, then there's really no point in trying to understand ANY word translated from Hebrew, because most of us "English-as-first-language" speakers DON'T READ OR WRITE HEBREW!
What does the word mean in Hebrew? Trying to apply the meaning of a word from middle English, Anglo-French, and Latin origins and meaning for a Hebrew word does not make any sense. What is the Hebrew meaning of the word?
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 2:53:11 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
The problem here is that I'm dealing with a Preterist
I'm not a "preterist" and I reject that label.
quote:
MT 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel..."
Addressed in myriad other posts: the "abomination of desolation" is a condition, not a person. "Desolation" is a condition. "Abomination" is something which is hated or loathed. "Abomination of desolation" can also be read as the "hated thing which causes ruin."
Here's how the God's Word translation puts the same verse:
“The prophet Daniel said that the disgusting thing that will cause destruction will stand in the holy place. When you see this (let the reader take note), those of you in Judea should flee to the mountains. Matthew 24:15-16 (GW)
The "disgusting thing" (abomination) is defined by the parallel passage for this verse:
“When you see armies camped around Jerusalem, realize that the time is near for it to be destroyed. Then those of you in Judea should flee to the mountains. Those of you in Jerusalem should leave it. Those of you in the fields shouldn't go back into them. Luke 21:20-21 (GW)
The "abomination of desolation" of Matthew 24:15 are the Roman legions that surrounded Jerusalem during its siege, so stated in Luke as the "armies camped around Jerusalem."
These are the same armies mentioned in Daniel 9:26:
"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26 (NKJV)
The people (Romans) of the prince who is to come (Titus) destroyed the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (its Temple) in 70 AD.
Occam's Razor.
quote:
Daniel 11:31 being the lens of dual focus describing "a" (ha- in the Hebrew) specific abomination (set in the sixty-two 'sevens') which portends and foreshadows the future end-time instance. It first comes in Daniel's near-term with Antiochus in 168 B.C. and then the Man in Linen (Jesus) switches the prophecy to the long-term end-times (Dual Focus);
There is absolutely NOTHING in Daniel 11 that points to any kind of "dual focus" or "dual fulfillment!" That is nothing more than your view of eschatology being layered upon the text!
The specific abomination to which Daniel 11:31 refers was Antiochus Epiphanes entering the Holy of Holies and sacrificing a pig to Zeus there!
And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. Daniel 12:11-12 (NKJV)
Daniel 12:11 refers to Antiochus and the taking away of the daily sacrifice, which he instituted in accord with the Hellenized Jews living in Jerusalem! Read Josephus' "Antiquities" or the history of the Maccabees to see why those who came to the "one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days" would be blessed!
Daniel 12 is written in the context of Daniel 11, which predicts - in great detail - the wars and treaties between the Seleucids (Syria, "king of the north") and Ptolomies (Egypt, "king of the south")
and how Judea was caught in the middle of all these wars! The latter parts of Daniel 11 deal with Herod the Great, the Idumean (Edomite) who usurped the rightful lineage of David to the throne by intrigue and military feats!
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For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.
The time of Great Tribulation is a specific and unique time period because Jesus defines it as being unequaled.
Anything like this???
Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Because you have multiplied disobedience more than the nations that are all around you, have not walked in My statutes nor kept My judgments, nor even done according to the judgments of the nations that are all around you'-- therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Indeed I, even I, am against you and will execute judgments in your midst in the sight of the nations. And I will do among you what I have never done, and the like of which I will never do again, because of all your abominations. Ezekiel 5:7-9 (NKJV)
quote:
For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.
I will do among you what I have never done, and the like of which I will never do again...
Ezekiel 4-11 predicts - in great detail - the siege and destruction that would befall Jerusalem. Some believe this refers to the Babylonian desolation of Jerusalem. I believe it refers to the Roman desolation of Jerusalem because of the famine and cannibalism that accompanied the Roman siege.
In any event, Christ's words here are - again - predicting the coming destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple that occurred in 70 AD. They are NOT pointing to some future anti-Christ!
quote:
Then Jesus says - right after introducing the Great Tribulation specific and unique period of time:
22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
The "elect" were those selected to survive the siege, as indicated in Ezekiel 9:
4 and the Lord said to him, "Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it." 5 To the others He said in my hearing, "Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. 6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were before the temple. 7 Then He said to them, "Defile the temple, and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!" And they went out and killed in the city. Ezekiel 9:4-7 (NKJV)
As Luke puts it, "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." Luke 21:22 (NKJV)
The elect were Jews within the city. The Roman siege of Jerusalem, begun by Cestius Gallus, was halted for a time after Gallus suffered an early defeat at the hands of the Jewish rebels because he did not commit his legions fully to the campaign! Literally, "those days" of the siege were shortened so that Jews and Christians could flee, and those who remained inside could resupply their stores.
Those who were marked survived and were taken captive. The rest - who didn't die of famine - were slain in such numbers that their blood extinguished fires that had been set by the Romans!
quote:
After giving us some detail about that time, Jesus then concludes the time of the Great Tribulation and He reveals that it is cut short -amputated- in the Greek as one "docks" an animal's tail with a description of the Day of the Lord - which is WHEN He returns:
MT 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
And - like everyone else who holds this view, you skipped a rather significant amount of Christ's words to get to this!
Read this again IN CONTEXT:
quote:
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. Matthew 24:23-28 (NKJV)
You skipped 5 verses to arrive at your conclusion, just as you skipped over vast tracts of Daniel, pulling passages out of context and stitching them together with other passages that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM!
Sorry, dude, but I challenged you to prove your point from scripture "WITHOUT PUTTING YOUR ESCHATOLOGY ON IT" and you couldn't. Thanks anyway.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 3:06:39 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
What does the word mean in Hebrew?"
Well, you apparently didn't even cite the correct word for "sacrifice." Here's a link to describe the word you cited:
http://qumran.com/AmYHWH/zebach_by_tom_1-7-05.htm
And here's the word the Jews use to describe it:
Korban (Hebrew: קָרְבָּן "sacrifice"; plural: korbanot קָרְבֳּנוֹת), in Judaism, is the term for a variety of sacrificial offerings described and commanded in the Torah. Such sacrifices were offered in a variety of settings by the ancient Israelites, and later by the Jewish priesthood, the Kohanim, at the Temple in Jerusalem. A Korban was usually an animal sacrifice, such as a sheep or a bull that underwent shechita (Jewish ritual slaughter), and was often cooked and eaten by the offerer, with parts given to the Kohanim and parts burned on the Temple mizbe'ah (altar). Korbanot could also consist of doves, grain, wine, or incense.
The Torah narrates that God commanded the Hebrews to offer korbanot on various altars, and describes the offering of sacrifices in the Tabernacle and in the Temple in Jerusalem until the First Temple was destroyed and resumed with the Second Temple until it was destroyed in 70 AD.
The practice of sacrifice in Judaism mostly ended with the destruction of the Temple, although it was briefly reinstated during the Jewish-Roman Wars of the 2nd Century AD and was continued in certain communities thereafter.[1] Rabbinic Judaism continued to maintain that the Torah allowed observance of Jewish law without animal sacrifice based upon oral tradition and strong support from scripture, such as Psalms 51:16-19 and Hosea 6:6. However, the practice and nature of Korbanot continue to have relevance to Jewish theology and law, particularly in Orthodox Judaism.
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Trying to apply the meaning of a word from middle English, Anglo-French, and Latin origins and meaning for a Hebrew word does not make any sense.
See the first link I posted above. Apparently the Jewish author has no problem with the Webster's definition of "sacrifice." You simply used the wrong Hebrew word to describe it!
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What is the Hebrew meaning of the word?
For at least the third time, "Sacrifice." As I don't speak Hebrew (and as, apparently, you don't either), "sacrifice" will have to do. (It works for Jews who speak English as a first language).
Maybe Roy can explain it to you. He speaks Hebrew...ask him.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 3:52:39 PM
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ENOCH2010
Posts: 135
Joined: 6/21/2010
Status: online
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Stormcrow,if everything was fulfilled in 70AD,when was the second coming?
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 5:40:54 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Stormcrow,if everything was fulfilled in 70AD,when was the second coming?
I've never written that everything was fulfilled in 70 AD, and I challenge you to find a single post where I ever did. (Some people read whole threads before they jump into a discussion.)
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 6:11:07 PM
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ENOCH2010
Posts: 135
Joined: 6/21/2010
Status: online
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You didn't answer the question,I was just curious as to how all these different beliefs end.I didn't mean to upset you,I'm sorry.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 6:26:59 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
You didn't answer the question,I was just curious as to how all these different beliefs end.I didn't mean to upset you,I'm sorry.
I believe I did. Nevertheless, I apologize for getting "testy." Things can get a little confrontational on threads like these.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 9:44:44 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I was just curious as to how all these different beliefs end.
With the return of the Lord on the clouds leading heaven's armies to save Israel and institute His millennial reign. See also Revelation 19 & 20.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 10:03:08 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Jesus never remarked the elect, the chosen ones, collectively the descendents of the House of Jacob, i.e. the Jews, are to experience pressure or stress for 2,000 years.
No. They are to experience it until they accept Messiah.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' " Matthew 23:37-39 (NKJV)
Ezekiel puts it this way:
Therefore, as I live,' says the Lord God, 'surely, because you have defiled My sanctuary with all your detestable things and with all your abominations, therefore I will also diminish you; My eye will not spare, nor will I have any pity. One-third of you shall die of the pestilence, and be consumed with famine in your midst; and one-third shall fall by the sword all around you; and I will scatter another third to all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them. Ezekiel 5:11-12 (NKJV)
The remnant of Israel lives under fear of the sword to this day from those who wish to see the Jews wiped off the face of the earth. Tribulation has followed them wherever they have gone! Again, this is completely consistent with Revelation 12:17:
And the dragon was enraged with the woman [Israel], and he [Satan] went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. [Christians and Jews chosen by election: the remnant]. Revelation 12:17 (NKJV)
Read Ezekiel 37 to see God's eschatology for Israel. It has nothing to do with Matthew 24:15-22.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 10:42:52 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 225
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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Stormcrow:
Sorry Charlie, you're wrong about most of the partial Preterist stuff you put up.
Good news: you can still make it to Heaven. Thank God we don't have to get eschatology right in order to be with God.
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