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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/22/2010 10:50:12 PM
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ENOCH2010
Posts: 135
Joined: 6/21/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
I was just curious as to how all these different beliefs end.
With the return of the Lord on the clouds leading heaven's armies to save Israel and institute His millennial reign. See also Revelation 19 & 20.
Now I can agree with that 
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/23/2010 12:07:27 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 812
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Occam's razor again Roy.
The Great Tribulation is set in the context of the one 'seven,' not two thousand years of the Church Age, and furthermore, Jesus said it would be shortened.
How you continue to delude yourself that that means its is lengthened way beyond the one 'seven' is beyond me.
Oh, Gilette's razor, SS!
There IS NO "Great Tribulation" in Matthew 24! It was AVOIDED by prayer, at the command of the Master!
I am not deluding myself; I am using the word rightly ... WITHOUT making it a LABEL! Furthermore, it is NOT the "one seven," even in part!
And by the way, learn what "Paradise" is. With just a little word study, that's easy to discover, and it's NOT "a level of Heaven beyond this natural world!" Just find the SIX places in Scripture where the original words are used (3 in Greek, but also 3 in Hebrew), and you'll be on your way to discovering what and WHERE it is.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/23/2010 1:18:21 AM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 427
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Occam's razor again Roy.
The Great Tribulation is set in the context of the one 'seven,' not two thousand years of the Church Age, and furthermore, Jesus said it would be shortened.
How you continue to delude yourself that that means its is lengthened way beyond the one 'seven' is beyond me.
Oh, Gilette's razor, SS!
There IS NO "Great Tribulation" in Matthew 24! It was AVOIDED by prayer, at the command of the Master!
Roy, You're dead wrong here; their prayer was for their flight not to be on the Sabbath or in Winter. Not to avoid the time of distress.
I am not deluding myself; I am using the word rightly ... WITHOUT making it a LABEL! Furthermore, it is NOT the "one seven," even in part!
And by the way, learn what "Paradise" is. With just a little word study, that's easy to discover, and it's NOT "a level of Heaven beyond this natural world!" Just find the SIX places in Scripture where the original words are used (3 in Greek, but also 3 in Hebrew), and you'll be on your way to discovering what and WHERE it is.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
Roy
Matt 24:21 says - For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now.
The thing is Hitler put much more distress on the Hebrews than Rome did. Over 6 million killed by Hitler, a little over 1 million by Rome. So if the distress is unequaled, it either had to be Hitler, or some other Leader in the future.
Jer 30: 3 - The days are coming declares the Lord, when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave to their forefathers. This is what the Lord says; v 7 - How awful that day will be, None will be like it, It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it. v8 - in that day, declares the Lord Almighty, I will break the yokes off their necks and will tear off their bonds, no longer will foreigners enslave them.
Jeremiah refers to the day of great (awful) distress, None will be like it. After this day God removes the yoke and bonds from Israel. This did not happen in 70 AD. It did not happen after Hitler. So it must be future.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/23/2010 1:29:03 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
Sorry Charlie, you're wrong about most of the partial Preterist stuff you put up.
We'll see.
By the way...I provide scripture along with historical sources to support my contentions. You, as have a number of others arguing the other side of this question, offer nothing but opinion and unsubstantiated claims. Further, what scripture you do offer is cobbled together with little regard for history or context.
If it weren't for the small matter of "truth", I wouldn't even waste my time here.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 6/23/2010 1:41:27 AM >
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/23/2010 1:57:26 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 812
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
The Great Tribulation is set in the context of the one 'seven,'
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
Prove it using scripture and only scripture.
By the way, there is no event or time period in the Bible known by the proper noun as the "Great Tribulation."
That's something pulled completely out of context by "futurists."
The problem here is that I'm dealing with a Preterist, not that I'm a "futurist." The very nature of prophecy is that it is future oriented: God tells us what will happen before it happens. Only God can know the future. Prophecy and miracles are the signature thumbprint of God and what brought this one-time atheist around to believe in Jesus.
Well, you TOLD me that you are a "futurist" when you had said you're a "Pre-wrath" person. There are three basic stances when it comes to eschatology: amillennialism, postmillennialism, and premillennialism. Premillennialists are "futurists." Preterists basically fall in the amillennial or postmillennial camps. Pretribulational rapturists, Postmillennial rapturists, and Prewrath rapturists are subdivisions of the premillennialists or futurists. (I make a fourth, as I don't fit into any of the three, although I am a futurist or a premillennialist. See what labels do for you? They PIGEON-HOLE you! They mark you as being in one camp or another instead of just believing whatever the Scriptures tell you.)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
MT 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel..."
The abomination is spoken three times in Daniel's book, once by Gabriel, and twice by the Man in Linen.
- The specific language of the Hebrew has Dan 9:27 as the worst (-im being added to the "abomination") future time and it is set in the one 'seven;'
Let's learn a little about Hebrew, shall we? The "-im" doesn't mean it's "worst." It is the masculine, plural ending to a word, whether the noun form or the adjective form of a word. Thus, the word should have been translated as "abominations," and it was. The KJV, for instance, says "for the overspreading of ABOMINATIONS," and that is a correct translation.
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ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
- Daniel 11:31 being the lens of dual focus describing "a" (ha- in the Hebrew) specific abomination (set in the sixty-two 'sevens') which portends and foreshadows the future end-time instance. It first comes in Daniel's near-term with Antiochus in 168 B.C. and then the Man in Linen (Jesus) switches the prophecy to the long-term end-times (Dual Focus); and,
- Daniel 12:11 which is a generic reference (siqqus and somen being in its most generic linguistic form).
"Ha-" in Hebrew, as a prefix, is the definite article. And, you're right that, as a rule, it refers to a specific instance of the noun. HOWEVER, don't fall into the trap that this means that "the abomination" spoken about in Dan. 11:31 refers back to 9:27! There's nothing in the context to force that conclusion. Only if someone treats the word "hashiquwts" as a LABEL would one come to such a conclusion! Furthermore, it could only be PART of "shiquwtsiym" in 9:27 purely because it is singular while "shiquwtsiym" is plural!
Don't read Scripture with the intent to match up labels prophetic passages; read the Scriptures with the intent of UNDERSTANDING what is being said!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
After giving three sentences for those in Judea (a future reference for the remnant Jews who will flee) Jesus turns back to addressing the linear progression of events which will precede His parousia:
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.
The time of Great Tribulation is a specific and unique time period because Jesus defines it as being unequaled.
Again, you've only quoted verse 21 which is only HALF of the sentence!!! One MUST read verse 20 with verse 21! If one does not, one introduces a half truth. The truth is that Yeshua` told His talmidiym (His disciples) to PRAY that their escape NOT have to be made in the winter or on the Shabbat so that their stress would be compounded by these events! They DID PRAY, and God sent Cestius Gallus home early! What MIGHT have been "a specific and unique time period because Jesus defined it as being unequaled," was AVOIDED! READ FOR UNDERSTANDING, and LEARN FROM HISTORY!!!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
It comes AFTER the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27.
We can also see the one-two aspect of this time in Revelation chapter 13 with the talking image (an abomination) being set up (in the Temple according to Paul in 2Th 2) and then two onerous laws which no true Christian can obey in verse 15 through 17.
Then Jesus says - right after introducing the Great Tribulation specific and unique period of time:
22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
Yeshua` did NOT "introduce the Great Tribulation specific and unique period of time"; He was WARNING them that, without prayer, it COULD be a "Great Tribulation" (or rather, a "terrible pressure"). However, there is no doubt that verse 22 DOES refer to the pressure that they would have to endure, but the pressure started with the first negative act against a Jew, whether a believer in Yeshua` as Messiah or not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
After giving us some detail about that time, Jesus then concludes the time of the Great Tribulation and He reveals that it is cut short -amputated- in the Greek as one "docks" an animal's tail with a description of the Day of the Lord - which is WHEN He returns:
MT 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
That shows the duration of this "thlipsis," or "tribulation," alright, but Yeshua` does NOT "conclude the time of the Great Tribulation!" It happens at least from 66 A.D. to the Day of the Lord! Since we are in the year 2010 A.D. and the Day of the Lord has not yet occurred, then the thlipsis Yeshua` was talking about is at least 2010 - 65 = 1,945 years long!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
So I can prove what I say, from the Bible, and it was Jesus who set it in the one 'seven' with verse 15.
You won't accept it because you'll hold onto your own thinking no matter what.
I won't accept it because you're bound by your label of the "Great Tribulation!" Yeshua` set nothing of the sort with verse 15! I'm not saying there was anything wrong with the interpretation process for the KJV, but OUR understanding of what what interpreted is clouded today. We don't understand what "tribulation" is anymore because we don't use the word anymore in normal, day-to-day conversation; consequently, we give it the status of a label!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/23/2010 10:03:04 AM
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NotreDame
Posts: 346
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
What does the word mean in Hebrew?"
Here's a link to describe the word you cited:
http://qumran.com/AmYHWH/zebach_by_tom_1-7-05.htm
quote:
Trying to apply the meaning of a word from middle English, Anglo-French, and Latin origins and meaning for a Hebrew word does not make any sense.
See the first link I posted above. Apparently the Jewish author has no problem with the Webster's definition of "sacrifice." You simply used the wrong Hebrew word to describe it!
quote:
What is the Hebrew meaning of the word?
For at least the third time, "Sacrifice." As I don't speak Hebrew (and as, apparently, you don't either), "sacrifice" will have to do. (It works for Jews who speak English as a first language).
Maybe Roy can explain it to you. He speaks Hebrew...ask him.
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See the first link I posted above.
In regards to your link, the first link, here are my thoughts. First, the author makes no effort to tell us what word Daniel used in Hebrew for the verse in question from Daniel. None. In fact, the author does not say one word which supports your argument.
The focus of the author's prose is defining the word "zebach" and not "korban." In fact, the author tells us he is not seeking to define the word "qorban." The author specifically tells us the word "qorban" is something he does not seek to define in the prose and is to be left for another day. " Before I start, I must first point out that in the Stone Edition (a Jewish translation), it is not the word zebach which they translate "sacrifice", it is the Hebrew word qorban which is mostly translated "sacrifice". I would rather leave that word (who's meaning has much to do with "approaching") for another day though."
So the author is explicitly telling you he is not defining the word korban in this prose but the word zerbach, a word you have concluded that cannot be the word used by Daniel. From this you amazingly deduce the author has said something, anything, suggesting the English meaning is the meaning used by Daniel. Yet, this conclusion is impossible to reach because the author has already told you between the two words, zebach and korban, he is only focusing upon zebach, he is not commenting on the meaning of korban, and zebach is, according to you, not the word used by Daniel.
In other words, the author has declined to make any comment the English meaning of the word sacrifice is identical, similar, or like the Hebrew meaning of the word korban, or may be used for the Hebrew word korban. Since the author has refused to make any comment on the meaning of this Hebrew word, then it is impossible for him to have said ANYTHING in this link supporting your idea the English meaning of the word sacrifice is acceptable for this verse in Daniel.
Hence, the inference to be drawn here is the author has said NOTHING to suggest the English meaning of the word sacrifice is the meaning of the word used by Daniel.
The evidence for this is in the link itself. The author provides the English meaning for the word "sacrifice." From the link, the meaning the author references is, "1 : an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : thekilling of a victim on an altar 2 : something offered in sacrifice 3 a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else b : something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents> 4 : LOSS <goods sold at a sacrifice> 5 : SACRIFICE HIT."
Then the author tells us this is this English meaning of the word sacrifice does not correspond with the Hebrew meaning of the word zebach. "We can indeed do zebach in our homes, but [z]ebach does NOT mean sacrifice (as the English word literally means)." The author has only commented on the English meaning of the word sacrifice is NOT the meaning of the Hebrew word zebach.
The author does not tell us what word Daniel used, much less how this word translates into English. Consequently, this link ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT support your contention.
quote:
Apparently the Jewish author has no problem with the Webster's definition of "sacrifice." You simply used the wrong Hebrew word to describe it
Really? Did you consult with Daniel? Did Daniel personally tell you what exactly he had in mind when writing this verse? Did he? If not, then you are just as much guessing Daniel has no problem with Webster's meaning as you were in telling me what Gabriel intended to say.
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Well, you apparently didn't even cite the correct word for "sacrifice."
The word I cited is from this website, and this website's NASB version of the Bible. Record your complaint with the website. Furthermore, has it ever occurred to you the word Daniel used was not korban? Maybe the word is zebach but the word has been mistranslated. Maybe the word used by Daniel is korban.
See, in your haste to admonish me you assume Daniel used the word korban. I am not sure he did. I am not sure he did not. As you previously told me, neither one of us read, speak, or talk in Hebrew. As a result, I cannot assuredly tell you what Hebrew word is being used here because I am not reading Daniel in Hebrew but an English translation offered by this website.
So please, spare me your admonishment when you are just as clueless here as I am. This is not an instance where you have some superior knowledge of the Hebrew text and can therefore, scold me with confidence you are right.
< Message edited by NotreDame -- 6/23/2010 10:09:06 AM >
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/23/2010 10:14:24 AM
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NotreDame
Posts: 346
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Occam's razor again Roy.
The Great Tribulation is set in the context of the one 'seven,' not two thousand years of the Church Age, and furthermore, Jesus said it would be shortened.
How you continue to delude yourself that that means its is lengthened way beyond the one 'seven' is beyond me.
Oh, Gilette's razor, SS!
There IS NO "Great Tribulation" in Matthew 24! It was AVOIDED by prayer, at the command of the Master!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
No, Jesus said "For then there will be great tribulation." Jesus never expressed his remark as a conditional, or if he did, then it did not survive any translation since a conditional of if X, then Y, is conspicuously lacking from any manuscript I have read.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/23/2010 11:32:19 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
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quote:
So please, spare me your admonishment when you are just as clueless here as I am. This is not an instance where you have some superior knowledge of the Hebrew text and can therefore, scold me with confidence you are right.
I never said I did. You're the one demanding a Hebrew meaning for the word "sacrifice" which you have been both unwilling and incapable of providing! You provided a TRANSLATION, and still have not provided a definition any better than the one I've offered!
You're the one who refuses to accept the English translation of the word (whether it be korban or zebach) that even Jews accept as both the correct word AND correct definition!
So, having to do your homework YET AGAIN, here is the word used in Daniel:
|2076| sacrifice: Strong's Ref. # 2076
Romanized zabach
Pronounced zaw-bakh'
a primitive root; to slaughter an animal (usually in sacrifice):
KJV--kill, offer, (do) sacrifice, slay.
Since we've FINALLY established the Hebrew word used, here is the definition the Jewish author of the first link cites to define it:
quote:
Just what does zebach mean?
According the dictionary, sacrifice means:
1 : an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the
killing of a victim on an altar
2 : something offered in sacrifice
3 a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else b
: something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>
4 : LOSS <goods sold at a sacrifice>
5 : SACRIFICE HIT
Which brings us right back to where we started: me providing definitions for the words you cite and you refusing - yet again - to accept them!
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/23/2010 1:29:44 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 346
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
So please, spare me your admonishment when you are just as clueless here as I am. This is not an instance where you have some superior knowledge of the Hebrew text and can therefore, scold me with confidence you are right.
So, having to do your homework YET AGAIN, here is the word used in Daniel:
|2076| sacrifice: Strong's Ref. # 2076
Romanized zabach
Pronounced zaw-bakh'
a primitive root; to slaughter an animal (usually in sacrifice):
KJV--kill, offer, (do) sacrifice, slay.
Since we've FINALLY established the Hebrew word used, here is the definition the Jewish author of the first link cites to define it:
quote:
Just what does zebach mean?
According the dictionary, sacrifice means:
1 : an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the
killing of a victim on an altar
2 : something offered in sacrifice
3 a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else b
: something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>
4 : LOSS <goods sold at a sacrifice>
5 : SACRIFICE HIT
quote:
So, having to do your homework YET AGAIN
I am so sorry I am so demanding you actually satisfy the burden of your argument. You are the one asserting Daniel is referring to God not accepting a sacrifice, as opposed to the plain text interpretation of Daniel talking about the act not happening. Hence, it is YOUR BURDEN to support your contention and it is YOUR BURDEN to provide the meaning to these words you use in support of your claim. YOUR BURDEN. Stop complaining about actually having to support YOUR OWN argument.
quote:
You provided a TRANSLATION, and still have not provided a definition any better than the one I've offered!
Never said I did, however, I am not the one abandoning the plain text interpretation but you are doing so. Hence, I am merely going off of what the plain text tells me. If you contend the plain text is actually saying something different, then it is YOUR BURDEN to demonstrate it. I was merely suggesting the meaning you have provided may not be accurate and nothing you said previously or now leads me to believe the meaning you are providing is accurate.
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You're the one who refuses to accept the English translation of the word (whether it be korban or zebach) that even Jews accept as both the correct word AND correct definition!
What Jews? What Jews are you talking about because you have not demonstrated the English meaning of the word sacrifice is a meaning the Jews accept, much less it is the meaning the Jews accept for the verse in dispute from the book of Daniel. This is nothing more than grandiose claim making on your behalf.
quote:
Since we've FINALLY established the Hebrew word used, here is the definition the Jewish author of the first link cites to define it:According the dictionary, sacrifice means:
1 : an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the
killing of a victim on an altar
2 : something offered in sacrifice
3 a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else b
: something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>
4 : LOSS <goods sold at a sacrifice>
5 : SACRIFICE HIT
NO!!!! The author of the first link specifically tells you this is NOT the Hebrew meaning of the word zebach! The above meaning of the word sacrifice is the English meaning and the author specifically tells you this English meaning is NOT the Hebrew meaning of the word zebach. The author of the first link says, "We can indeed do zebach in our homes, but [z]ebach does NOT mean sacrifice (as the English word literally means)....zebach is indeed used here where it quite clearly does not mean "sacrifice" but is referring simply to eating the flesh of an animal.
The author of the first link just told you the definition you are relying upon IS NOT the Hebrew meaning of the word zebach! In other words, the author at the first link refutes and contradicts what you are arguing!
In fact, the author of the link states, unequivocally, the Hebrew word zebach does not mean sacrifice! Read your own link for heaven's sake! The author at the first link tells you the word qorban (korban) is known as sacrifice in English. The author of the first link says, "Before I start, I must first point out that in the Stone Edition (a Jewish translation), it is not the word zebach which they translate "sacrifice", it is the Hebrew word qorban which is mostly translated "sacrifice".
The author here tells you qorban (korban) is translated as sacrifice, and not zebach! Hence, according to the author, you are not making any sense by insisting to define the word zebach as meaning sacrifice, much less sacrifice as defined in English! The entire point the author seeks to make is to refute the notion the English meaning of the word sacrifice is applicable to the Hebrew word zebach. Wake up!
What you have done, so far is provide a link where the person at the link specifically states the English meaning of the word sacrifice IS NOT THE HEBREW MEANING OF ZEBACH!
So, essentially, you have dug yourself into a deeper hole because now I would just love to know why you referred me to a link which illuminates why the English meaning of the word sacrifice is not the Hebrew meaning of the word zebach? Your own link refutes your own argument!
quote:
You're the one demanding a Hebrew meaning for the word "sacrifice" which you have been both unwilling and incapable of providing!
Well, you have just referred me to a link why I should not accept your English meaning for the word zebach. Thanks for reassuring my skepticism that you have even applied the correct meaning for the Hebrew word used by Daniel. Essentiallly, you have just contradicted your own argument with the first link, the author at the first link is making a commentary which supports my skepticism, and in the end your most noble efforts to fit a square (English meaning of the word sacrifice) where a circle should be (Hebrew word zebach) increasingly looks dubious, based on the commentary of the first link.
quote:
Which brings us right back to where we started: me providing definitions for the words you cite and you refusing - yet again - to accept them!
Yes, we are back where we began, which is you providing the English meaning for a Hebrew word, me questioning whether the English meaning is the correct meaning for the Hebrew word, and you insisting it is, without any evidence to support your claim. Except, you have now provided a link where the author at the link makes the argument the English meaning of the word sacrifice IS NOT the Hebrew meaning of the word zebach. So, we are now at a point where you have provided me with a link supporting my initial skepticism your English meaning of the word sacrifice is applicable to the verse in Daniel.
It would be beneficial, to your own argument, if you cite to evidence and links which support what you are saying, not contradict you.
< Message edited by NotreDame -- 6/23/2010 1:53:02 PM >
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/24/2010 9:03:41 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 225
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
I'm not a "preterist" and I reject that label.
You're a partial Preterist. If you want to see a real fight, watch a full Preterist argue with a partial Preterist, in less than a page, the word "heresy" will be used...
quote:
MT 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel..."
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
Addressed in myriad other posts: the "abomination of desolation" is a condition, not a person. "Desolation" is a condition. "Abomination" is something which is hated or loathed. "Abomination of desolation" can also be read as the "hated thing which causes ruin."
No.
Abomination is what idols are in the Bible. An abomination is a thing. This one is put in the plural. Besides showing how many, the plural in Hebrew can be used to show how great, or conversely how terrible someone or thing is.
Desolate is a adjective. Put me- before it in the Hebrew and it becomes a noun. This same noun is the object of God's Wrath at the end of Daniel 9:27. As God only judges sentinel beings and not conditions, this noun form of desolate can be a "desolator."
Taken together, and compared to Revelation 13:14-17, we can conclude the terrible idol is the talking image of the anti-Christ, the ruler who will come in the one 'seven' (which has yet to begin) and that HE is the desolator, the trigger for God's Wrath.
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ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
The "abomination of desolation" of Matthew 24:15 are the Roman legions that surrounded Jerusalem during its siege, so stated in Luke as the "armies camped around Jerusalem."
Typical Preterist error... and not Biblically correct.
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ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
The people (Romans) of the prince who is to come (Titus) destroyed the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (its Temple) in 70 AD.
Wrong again Mr. Preterist; Titus led the army which destroyed the city and the sanctuary. Titus never stood in the Temple, when he finally came to it, it was burning. Titus tore it down. Titus never set anything up in the Temple.
Titus' destruction pinpoints the people from whom the final anti-Christ will come from in his rise to supremacy.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
There is absolutely NOTHING in Daniel 11 that points to any kind of "dual focus" or "dual fulfillment!"
Nonsense.
Daniel 11:36-40 describes a king unknown to history.
Daniel 11:41-45 describes the actions of the King of the North at the end of man's rule.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
The "elect" were those selected to survive the siege, as indicated in Ezekiel 9:
Ezekiel 9 describes part of God's Wrath against the Jews left behind after the Rapture but on the second half of the Day of the Lord.
Those not killed will join the Remnant Jews who fled from Jerusalem the day before when Jesus split the Mount of Olives.
Those who fled Jerusalem through the cleft will join those Jews already in the wilderness who fled from Judea previously a few weeks or months before at the midpoint when the King of the North invades Israel and surrounds Jerusalem.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
You skipped 5 verses to arrive at your conclusion, just as you skipped over vast tracts of Daniel, pulling passages out of context and stitching them together with other passages that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM!
Those five verses do not give any event which transpires between the Great Tribulation and the arrival of the Day of the Lord. They are descriptive and instructive for the Church only. It does not advance the plot at all, so your criticism is specious and moot.
Later "dude."
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/24/2010 9:12:09 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 225
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
I am not deluding myself; I am using the word rightly ... WITHOUT making it a LABEL! Furthermore, it is NOT the "one seven," even in part!
Denial means: "Don't Even kNow I Am Lying."
The fact that people in denial deny they're in denial is a funny thing to watch if it isn't serious.
The Great Tribulation is set in context with the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27.
That's a fact Roy, live it, learn it, and love it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
And by the way, learn what "Paradise" is. With just a little word study, that's easy to discover, and it's NOT "a level of Heaven beyond this natural world!" Just find the SIX places in Scripture where the original words are used (3 in Greek, but also 3 in Hebrew), and you'll be on your way to discovering what and WHERE it is.
I've done my word study Roy, so you don't get to give me a school-boy lesson.
Paradise and Heaven are interchangeable terms with Paul, and he spoke of a man who went to the third Heaven... I'm not the one who initiated the concept of various "levels" of Heaven.
The third Heaven (Paradise): Presence of God the Father.
The second Heaven (Paradise): Beneath the floor of God's Temple in Heaven where the fifth Seal martyrs wait.
The first Heaven (Paradise): Where the Dead in Christ rest in peace until Jesus calls them out; where Jesus and the thief on His right went when they died that day; from where the dead will be called out in Mt 24:31 and John 5:24-25.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/25/2010 1:05:44 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Titus never stood in the Temple, when he finally came to it, it was burning. Titus tore it down. Titus never set anything up in the Temple.
The very presence of Titus in the Inner Court meets the condition!
And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy. And now all the soldiers had such vast quantities of the spoils which they had gotten by plunder, that in Syria a pound weight of gold was sold for half its former value.
The Works of Flavius Josephus.
The presence of Roman ensigns in the Temple and the fact that sacrifices were made to them meets the condition for the "abomination of desolation!"
The sacrifice to the "hated things" (ensigns = idols) in the ruined (desolate) Temple!
I don't have time to pursue this now as I will be traveling for the full day ahead. Suffice to say you are wrong on so many counts, it boggles the mind.
Peace. Out. Dude.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 6/25/2010 1:22:30 PM >
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/25/2010 2:53:20 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 225
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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Dude!
The Preterist pretence you present is absolutely in error and is proved so by the Bible!
Jesus said the abominations would be set up in the Holy Place. By Scripture, that is inside the Temple!
Furthermore, Paul said in 2Th 2, that the man of lawlessness would set himself IN the Temple, proclaiming himself to be God!
Titus did neither of these things by your own admission. Thus the error of Preterism is false interpretation, proclaiming fulfillment where there is none.
What's more, what Titus and the Romans did was foretold by Gabriel in Daniel 9:26 as a condition whereby we would know from which people the final ruler of this world would come.
Titus was not the last Roman ruler, nor was he undone by the desolations God has decreed.
Peace indeed.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/26/2010 3:26:07 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
The Preterist pretence you present is absolutely in error and is proved so by the Bible!
Again, you assert proof when you have provided none. You have offered opinions and assertions. I have offered history and sound exegesis. I have Josephus and Eusebius on my side. You have...you!
I have repeatedly shown - by any number of means, and definitions - what the "abomination of desolation" was. You continue to offer your personal interpretation based merely on your opinion. That's fine: I really don't care about opinions. Until you can show me facts that support your case, there's really no point in continuing this discussion.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/26/2010 6:46:25 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 812
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shabbat shalom, Sinner-Saint.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
I am not deluding myself; I am using the word rightly ... WITHOUT making it a LABEL! Furthermore, it is NOT the "one seven," even in part!
Denial means: "Don't Even kNow I Am Lying."
The fact that people in denial deny they're in denial is a funny thing to watch if it isn't serious.
Wouldn't that be "DEKIAL?" What is denial if not using a label instead of understanding the word? Was Yeshua` in the habit of making up new "handles" for various time periods? I don't think so! Yeshua` was talking to fishermen, to tax collectors, to farmers, to wives and husbands, to simple workers, NOT to the intelligencia. He wasn't even really talking to the religious people most of the time. He was trying to make this intelligible for the MASSES (of Jews, that is)!
There is no "Great Tribulation" in Matthew 24. It was AVOIDED!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
The Great Tribulation is set in context with the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27.
That's a fact Roy, live it, learn it, and love it.
I repeat; there is NO "Great Tribulation" in Matthew 24. There WOULD have been had Yeshua`s disciples not been warned to pray that their escape not have to be attempted during the winter or on a Shabbat!
Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah or Jesus the Christ) is the One who left Isra'el "desolate" for the OVERSPREADING OF THEIR "abominations" (plural, by the way)! That's the biblical fact, William, not just some theological conclusion.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
And by the way, learn what "Paradise" is. With just a little word study, that's easy to discover, and it's NOT "a level of Heaven beyond this natural world!" Just find the SIX places in Scripture where the original words are used (3 in Greek, but also 3 in Hebrew), and you'll be on your way to discovering what and WHERE it is.
I've done my word study Roy, so you don't get to give me a school-boy lesson.
Paradise and Heaven are interchangeable terms with Paul, and he spoke of a man who went to the third Heaven... I'm not the one who initiated the concept of various "levels" of Heaven.
The third Heaven (Paradise): Presence of God the Father.
The second Heaven (Paradise): Beneath the floor of God's Temple in Heaven where the fifth Seal martyrs wait.
The first Heaven (Paradise): Where the Dead in Christ rest in peace until Jesus calls them out; where Jesus and the thief on His right went when they died that day; from where the dead will be called out in Mt 24:31 and John 5:24-25.
Well, if THAT'S the result of your word study, then we've got some work to do. I'm afraid we need to try again. First of all, "paradise" DOES NOT EQUAL "Heaven!" They are NOT interchangeable terms! Not with Rav Sha'ul (Paul), not with Yeshua` (Jesus), not with Shlomo (Solomon), not with Nechemyahu (Nehemiah), and not with ANYBODY in the Scriptures!
"Paradise" is a transliteration of the Greek word "paradeisos," and "heaven" is a translation (most of the time) from the Greek word "ouranos." And, "paradeisos" is not a synonym of "ouranos," either.
There are only three places in the New Testament that contain the word "paradise," and all three come from the same Greek word. Furthermore, those are the ONLY three places in the Greek New Testament where that particular word is used. Those locations are ...
Luke 23:39-43
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
KJV
2 Cor 12:1-4
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV
Rev 2:1-7
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV
In every case, the Greek word is a form of ...
NT:3857 paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos); of Oriental origin [compare OT:6508]; a park, i.e. (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):
KJV - paradise.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Although this definition from Strong's Greek Dictionary says that it is from an "Oriental origin," it still shows the associated word in the Hebrew at "OT:6508":
OT:6508 pardeec (par-dace'); of foreign origin; a park:
KJV - forest, orchard.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Noticing that it was translated as either "forest" or "orchard" in the King James Version, we could look each of these words up in the Concordance to find where OT:6508 occurs, or we could use another handy tool, the Englishman's Concordance. From either source, we would arrive at the other three occurrences of the word, "pardeec":
Neh 2:7-8
7 Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah;
8 And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.
KJV
Eccl 2:5
5 I made me gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits:
KJV
Song 4:13-14
13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,
14 Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:
KJV
Notice that there is nothing mystical or unusual about these verses. The word simply means a "park" particularly consisting of TREES!
So, when Yeshua` said "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God," He was talking about a particular PARK of God where the tree of life was planted. Where do you think that park exists? Don't answer! Let the Scriptures answer. Look up the "tree of life" in the book of Revelation and you will find it:
Rev 22:1-2
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV
Rev 22:14
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
KJV
So, where is this "Park of God?" INSIDE THE NEW JERUSALEM!
You don't need "levels of heaven," and that's NOT what Rav Sha'ul was saying in 2 Cor. 12:1-4. He was talking about the three "heavens" of Kefa (Peter)!!
2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/26/2010 10:25:05 PM
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Montana Marv
Posts: 427
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Roy
Matt 24:29,30 - Immediately after the distress of those days: ( of v.21), the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time (immediately after the distress of those days) the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all of the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
Did the Second Coming occur shortly after the Romans surrounded Jerusalem?
So when you see standing in the holy place.
Flee.
How dreadful for pregnant women and nursing mothers.
Pray that your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
For then there will be great distress unequaled.
If those days had not be shortened.
Immediately after the distress of those days.
The sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
At that time the Son of Man will appear in the sky.
And all the nations of the earth will mourn.
With power and great glory, the Son of Man will come.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/27/2010 3:00:35 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. Matthew 24:15-18 (NKJV)
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. Luke 21:20-21 (NKJV)
These parallel passages speak of the imminent desolation of Jerusalem at the hands of the Romans, predicted in Matthew 23:
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "
Matthew 23:37-39 (NKJV)
This passage is actually paralleled in Luke 19:
41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation." Luke 19:41-44 (NKJV)
Jesus is prophesying of the desolation that would come at the hands of the Romans: a desolation predicted in Daniel 9:26:
"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26 (NKJV)
Now, with these passages predicting the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in mind, reconcile them with this passage, from Revelation 20:
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. Revelation 20:7-9 (NKJV)
Look again:
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near."
"They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them."
The passage from Luke (paralleled in Matthew 24) is a prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem by the armies that surround it.
The passage from Revelation is a prophecy of the destruction of the armies that surround Jerusalem. They cannot both be describing "end-time" events.
Only one of these passages is eschatological. The other is fulfilled in history. Which passage better represents the "end of things?"
It does make me wonder, however, why so many professing Christians are looking forward to a day when the passages in Matthew and Luke will be fulfilled again; when the city and its Temple will be destroyed and when two-thirds of its inhabitants will be killed by famine and sword, and its survivors carried off to other nations as slaves. Because that's EXACTLY what happened in 70 AD!
God has promised to save Jerusalem in the end, not destroy it again. People who are looking forward to this (Jerusalem's destruction) as some sort of "sign" of the imminent return of Christ are looking for the wrong thing.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/27/2010 3:11:15 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 812
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shabbat shalom, Montana Marv.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
Roy
Matt 24:29,30 - Immediately after the distress of those days: ( of v.21), the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time (immediately after the distress of those days) the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all of the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
Did the Second Coming occur shortly after the Romans surrounded Jerusalem?
So when you see standing in the holy place.
Flee.
How dreadful for pregnant women and nursing mothers.
Pray that your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
For then there will be great distress unequaled.
If those days had not be shortened.
Immediately after the distress of those days.
The sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
At that time the Son of Man will appear in the sky.
And all the nations of the earth will mourn.
With power and great glory, the Son of Man will come.
In Christ
Montana Marv
You're not listening (or reading what I wrote). I don't believe in your 7-year scenario, not during the time of the Romans OR in the future!
The duration of the pressure ("tribulation") on the Jews has been an ON-GOING INTERVAL! It STARTED during the times of the Romans, but it will END when the Son of Man appears! It has nothing to do with the 70th seven directly because (1) Yeshua` the Messiah has left the Jews desolate until they can welcome Him back with the authority of His Father (Matt. 23:37-39), (2) the times of the Gentiles are finished (Rom. 11:25), and (3) the 70th seven is also about the Jews, as you are so fond of quoting, "upon thy people and upon thy holy city!" (Dan. 9:24)
The first 3.5 years of the final seven was before this time period and the last 3.5 years of the final seven will be after the time of "Isra'el's blindness." The delay is simply the stubbornness of His people, Isra'el! Most still cannot say "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH" from their hearts about the Messiah! As much as they want the Messiah to come, they can't accept that it could be the Yeshua` (Jesus) whom they rejected! Many don't even KNOW that it's a possibility!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
The avatar above is a Venn diagram of the Kingdom from the sky. Yeshua`s Kingdom is in green, both dark green and light green.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/27/2010 3:49:57 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:25-29 (NKJV)
"...until the fullness of the gentiles has come in." Hmmm....where have I read that before??? Oh yeah, here it is:
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24 (NKJV)
There is an exquisite consistency to Biblical prophecy that transcends human understanding.
This "trampling" began in 70 AD. It continues today. As long as the Dome of the Rock sits atop the Temple Mount, Jerusalem remains "desolate."
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/27/2010 9:47:17 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 225
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
Again, you assert proof when you have provided none. You have offered opinions and assertions. I have offered history and sound exegesis. I have Josephus and Eusebius on my side. You have...you!
That's more nonsense SC.
I referenced what Jesus said about the abomination(s) of the end-times. He said it would be set up in the Holy Place. If you read your Bible and do your research, you'll find that the "Holy Place" is inside the Temple, in front of the Curtain, which separates the "Most Holy Place" from the rest of that inner sanctum.
I referenced what Paul said in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. He said that the man of lawlessness would set himself up in the Temple, proclaiming himself God...
Now for you to say I only offer opinions from myself, or even to say that you have done an exhaustive study of the abomination without incorporating that - not to mention (so I will) the revealed nature of the abomination in Revelation 13:14 - is a manifestation of a situation which is not where we are trying to discuss a subject and get to the truth of the matter as it is expressed by God through the Bible, but a mano-e-mano struggle of one-upmanship where the only goal is to try and make yourself look better than your opponent!
Preterism is a contention without merit. All the "facts" Preterists dig up don't match Scripture, and the tribulation of the first century, or even times after that were not the worst times of persecution ever witnessed in history - and so don't fit the prophecy Jesus gave us.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/27/2010 9:56:22 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
That's more nonsense SC.
That's more nonsense, SS.
See how easy it is to write that without ever having to provide one scintilla of fact to support your position?
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/27/2010 9:58:17 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 225
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
There is no "Great Tribulation" in Matthew 24. It was AVOIDED!
Well we're in denial again... Jesus most definitely defines a time of Great Tribulation which will be encountered. The only prayer for the fleeing Jews is that they not have it on the Sabbath or unusually cold weather... you see Jesus still expects people to follow the Sabbath Laws.
Now as I am in Birmingham at the hotel computer, I do not have access to my books or even a decent Bible program which is on my computer - but I do know from my reading that Paradise and Heaven are interchangeable terms.
You in your argument against did not reference Luke 17, nor did you mention that Jesus told the thief on His right that they would be in Paradise that day, the day they died.
You did not talk about the fact that Paul uses those two Greek words for the same thing...
So like with stormcrow, I have to wonder if we're in a Christian search for the truth here as it relates to prophecy, or whether we're locked in some worldly struggle for supremacy for the little audience which reads this board.
Paradise is a garden, and Heaven is described as that too. Paul used levels of Heaven to describe his conversations with John, who had gone there by the time he met Paul, and we are only in Heaven with Jesus after Jesus comes back and resurrects the Dead in Christ from where they "rest" which is also in Heaven... just like the Paradise Jesus and the thief retired to on the day they died on their crosses.
I stand by what I put forth. The Elect are gathered from a different part of Heaven on the Day of the Lord, Paradise, the first level of Heaven. Jesus calls them out of there (Jn 5:24-25) to be with Him, and together, He takes those resurrected Saints with Him back to the third Heaven of the presence of God the Father, where they show up as the Great Multitude inside God's Temple in Heaven.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/27/2010 10:00:18 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 225
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
See how easy it is to write that without ever having to provide one scintilla of fact to support your position?
These are not the words of someone who is earnestly trying to discern the Scripture, which I referenced yet again.
I'm sorry you have to be like this; this conversation is just becoming a personal argument and is not edifying to the body of Christ. Good day.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/27/2010 10:02:37 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 587
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
but a mano-e-mano struggle of one-upmanship where the only goal is to try and make yourself look better than your opponent!
quote:
These are not the words of someone who is earnestly trying to discern the Scripture, which I referenced yet again.
I'm sorry you have to be like this;
Speaking only for yourself, of course. That is not my intent here.
"Until you can show me facts that support your case, there's really no point in continuing this discussion."
"this conversation is just becoming a personal argument and is not edifying to the body of Christ.
Good day."
Well, at least we can agree on something.
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RE: Matt 24:22 Days Cut Short - 6/27/2010 10:06:49 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 901
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
quote:
I think Jesus had something specific in mind when referring to "distress" and it was not the mere troubles they have been experiencing for the last two millennia.
The Greek word for "distress" and "tribulation" is "thlipsis", which means "pressure." It's the same word Christ used in John 16:33.
It's the same word used 5 times in Revelation up to chapter 7 verse 14, after which it is NEVER used in any form again.
And Thlipsis is always something used biblically that Christians go thru not nonchristians.
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