quote:

ORIGINAL: Reba

I agree He will return.


Again how many times will/does Jesus come to Israel?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reba

I agree He will return.


Again how many times will/does Jesus come to Israel?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayne230

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, Wayne.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

Hi Roy,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, Leonelrb.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonelrb

Hello Retrobyter,

quote:

(Oh, and we WILL be getting back our physical bodies--"spiritual" bodies does NOT mean that they are immaterial but that they are SUPER bodies!)

Thank you very much for that great explanation. I am still struggling with the quote above. Are you saying that this physical body will be similar to the body Adam and Eve had before they sinned, or will this be a superior body? Will these physical beings be able to reproduce again?

I believe that Adam and Chavah (Eve) had better bodies than we have today, but Adam's body was inferior to the body of the "Second Adam" after Yeshua`s resurrection, according to I Cor. 15:44-49.

Will these physical beings be able to reproduce again? Frankly, I don't know. I know that we will "neither marry nor be given in marriage," according to Yeshua`, but whether that includes reproduction or not, I don't know. I rather believe that it does, but there's no proof that I know of. So, my gut reaction is to say, no, they will not reproduce, but don't take my word on it.

In the Messiah's love,
Roy

The ones alive for the 1,000 years are the first to receive immortal bodies, if they are not married they will not be having children. If their population remains static then the way they 'parent' would be to the children that are born to the ones who live outside the Holy City in the New Earth. The children being born would be like grandchildren are to us.

These topics keep going back to if the 70 weeks have been fulfilled or not. I'm not if that point can be argued in any other thread?

Yes, and that is the distant link and why this discussion ended up in this thread. I am NOT of the opinion that the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. I believe that there are 3.5 weeks left (not 7). So, I am not a pretrib, posttrib, midtrib, or prewrath, nor am I a full preterist. However, I completely believe in a millennium--not to describe the length of the Messiah's Kingdom, but to describe the length of time haSatan is incarcerated in the bottomless pit.

ON THE OTHER HAND, when one harmonizes II Peter 3:3-13, I Corinthians 15:20-28, and Revelation 20:1-15, then one finds that the Messiah reigns during the Millennium until He has subdued all of His enemies, the last enemy being Death, and then He turns over the Empire to His Father God while He remains the King of Isra'el. Furthermore, we have some SIGNIFICANT things that are said to be "forever" and are thus part of the New Earth with its New Sky and the New Jerusalem its capital city.

Ps 89:34-37
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

Eccl 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV

Isa 65:17-25
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
KJV

Isa 66:20-24
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
KJV

Rev 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

In the Messiah's love,
Roy

Hi yourself!

I am not Jewish in case that wasn't clear but I am sympathetic toward Israel. I bring up Israel to show that the tribulation could not have happened in 70ad. what happened was that Israel was scattered through the nations.Jesus warned of that in Matthiew 24 to be sure, but that is not the same thing as the tribulation.I believe Isaiah is talking about a physical and a real Jerusalem which we who love Jesus will be part of. we have not seen that yet but that is coming. It seems to me that if the new Jerusalem or Heaven will not experience night and will see Jesus as in Revelation it seems impossible to me that any of that could have happened in 70ad. what will happen to us as believers is yet to take place. but Israel will recognize Jesus as its Messiah. he is what the Tribulation is all about. for that reason I believe we won't be part of that but will see him face to face.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, Wayne230 (and I say "Shalom" to everyone; I'm not Jewish either, except through the Messiah, but I AM a Messianic believer).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayne230

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, Wayne.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring Stranger

Hi Roy,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, Leonelrb.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonelrb

Hello Retrobyter,

quote:

(Oh, and we WILL be getting back our physical bodies--"spiritual" bodies does NOT mean that they are immaterial but that they are SUPER bodies!)

Thank you very much for that great explanation. I am still struggling with the quote above. Are you saying that this physical body will be similar to the body Adam and Eve had before they sinned, or will this be a superior body? Will these physical beings be able to reproduce again?

I believe that Adam and Chavah (Eve) had better bodies than we have today, but Adam's body was inferior to the body of the "Second Adam" after Yeshua`s resurrection, according to I Cor. 15:44-49.

Will these physical beings be able to reproduce again? Frankly, I don't know. I know that we will "neither marry nor be given in marriage," according to Yeshua`, but whether that includes reproduction or not, I don't know. I rather believe that it does, but there's no proof that I know of. So, my gut reaction is to say, no, they will not reproduce, but don't take my word on it.

In the Messiah's love,
Roy

The ones alive for the 1,000 years are the first to receive immortal bodies, if they are not married they will not be having children. If their population remains static then the way they 'parent' would be to the children that are born to the ones who live outside the Holy City in the New Earth. The children being born would be like grandchildren are to us.

These topics keep going back to if the 70 weeks have been fulfilled or not. I'm not if that point can be argued in any other thread?

Yes, and that is the distant link and why this discussion ended up in this thread. I am NOT of the opinion that the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. I believe that there are 3.5 weeks left (not 7). So, I am not a pretrib, posttrib, midtrib, or prewrath, nor am I a full preterist. However, I completely believe in a millennium--not to describe the length of the Messiah's Kingdom, but to describe the length of time haSatan is incarcerated in the bottomless pit.

ON THE OTHER HAND, when one harmonizes II Peter 3:3-13, I Corinthians 15:20-28, and Revelation 20:1-15, then one finds that the Messiah reigns during the Millennium until He has subdued all of His enemies, the last enemy being Death, and then He turns over the Empire to His Father God while He remains the King of Isra'el. Furthermore, we have some SIGNIFICANT things that are said to be "forever" and are thus part of the New Earth with its New Sky and the New Jerusalem its capital city.

Ps 89:34-37
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

Eccl 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV

Isa 65:17-25
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
KJV

Isa 66:20-24
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
KJV

Rev 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

In the Messiah's love,
Roy

Hi yourself!

I am not Jewish in case that wasn't clear but I am sympathetic toward Israel. I bring up Israel to show that the tribulation could not have happened in 70ad. what happened was that Israel was scattered through the nations.Jesus warned of that in Matthiew 24 to be sure, but that is not the same thing as the tribulation.I believe Isaiah is talking about a physical and a real Jerusalem which we who love Jesus will be part of. we have not seen that yet but that is coming. It seems to me that if the new Jerusalem or Heaven will not experience night and will see Jesus as in Revelation it seems impossible to me that any of that could have happened in 70ad. what will happen to us as believers is yet to take place. but Israel will recognize Jesus as its Messiah. he is what the Tribulation is all about. for that reason I believe we won't be part of that but will see him face to face.

I guess I'm going to have to be more specific to whom I'm addressing. See, "Wayfaring Stranger's" name is Wayne, too. He's the one to whom I wrote all of the above, but that's okay! While I have your response, let me just say that you should not be so tied to labels. "Tribulation" is an unfortunate word because it is now treated as a label when really the Greek word, "thlipsis," strictly means "pressure," even though it was translated "tribulation." The pressure that was put on the Jews to which Yeshua` was referring in Matt. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is MUCH longer than a mere 7 years and it IS that "scattering" about which you were talking! It's been going on for some 1,980 years now, and thanks to the Orthodox Jewish view of Yeshua`, it shows no sign of letting up for the foreseeable future, although the Messianic Movement is seeing thousands of Jews coming to recognize Yeshua` (Jesus) as their Messiah! This "pressure" actually began shortly after the Messiah's ascension closer to 30 A.D. and still continues today in 2010 A.D.

I do agree with you, however, that Isra'el will recognize Yeshua` as its Messiah. In fact, Yeshua` promised they wouldn't see Him again until they could welcome Him back (Matt. 23:37-29). There remain (IMO) 3.5 years of the 70 "sevens" of years (490 years) in the prophecy given to Dani'el by Gavri'el in Dan. 9:24-27. While most claim that there remain 7 years, Yeshua`s 3.5-year "ministry" when He offered Himself as Isra'el's King reduced that final 7 years to half. Thus, after Isra'el's "blindness in part" is healed completely, the count will resume and the last 3.5 years will finish the prophecy.

In the Messiah's love,
Roy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayne230

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reba

I agree He will return.


Again how many times will/does Jesus come to Israel?

Thats good that we can agree on that. If I know the Old Testament Jesus will set his feet on the mount of Olives. and we who are the saints will reign with him for ever

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reba

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayne230

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reba

I agree He will return.


Again how many times will/does Jesus come to Israel?

Thats good that we can agree on that. If I know the Old Testament Jesus will set his feet on the mount of Olives. and we who are the saints will reign with him for ever

Is that the literal mountain? If so then does Christ straddle the mount as it splits?

How many times does Christ come to Israel?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reba

You dare to call Jesus Thee Son of God the son of Joseph?

My Bible tells me God sent HIS son....John 3 16

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reba

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Because a man is studied and possesses the title Rabbi does not make him any more of God then good ol' filthy Jimmy Swaggart. It is our relationship with Him that makes us of God.

Do you have a different reading on the verses above or does Gods Word say what it says?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reba

No problem to know in ones head Mary and Josehp were married. Both were of the house of David.I have known that all my life. ( Good grief over 60 years now ) The problem is when the soul/heart /spirit (hope you get the meaning) does not reconize Christ is the Son of God come in the flesh. That group, person, peoples, etc is antichrist.

.....2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God......


Problem with Luke 1:30- 33 Nope not one bit. I fully believe...

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

I believe His kingdom was/is established and that there shall be no end, He is King. He is King of Kings.


I do not concider Swaggart a brother.

Some times with the using of the different spellings you use and the the double names (ie Miryam (Mary), your posts can be a bit hard to follow. I will try and read more carefully please in the same manner do not think my lack of good use of words or proper grammar, are anything other than just that.

quote:

...that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

...that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Thanks for quoting this passage. Would that be like Jimmy Swaggart, while the head of an international TV ministry, getting caught patronizing prostitutes, crying crockodile tears for the cameras, only to get caught again 3 years later doing more of he same and telling his church God was with him and it was none of their business?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, Eutychus.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eutychus

quote:

...that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Thanks for quoting this passage. Would that be like Jimmy Swaggart, while the head of an international TV ministry, getting caught patronizing prostitutes, crying crockodile tears for the cameras, only to get caught again 3 years later doing more of he same and telling his church God was with him and it was none of their business?

Now, now, let's not be too bitter....

quote:

The warning still stands; be careful judging another Man's servant!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stormcrow

No need to worry, Roy: the 70 weeks are completely fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The following is cross-posted from the "Revelation Question" thread:

Ntech...

The translators are wrong. Here, again, is the passage literally translated from the Greek with Strong's Reference numbers beside them:

quote:


|2532| And
|2784| will be proclaimed
|5124| this
|2098| Good News
|3588| of the
|0932| kingdom
|1722| in
|3680| all
|3588| the
|3625| inhabited earth
|1519| for
|3142| a testimony
|3956| to all
|3588| the
|1484| nations,
|2532| and
|5119| then
|2240| will come
|3588| the
|5156| end.

Strong's Ref. # 3625
Romanized oikoumene
Pronounced oy-kou-men'-ay

feminine participle present passive of GSN3611 (as noun, by implication of GSN1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically, the Roman empire:
KJV--earth, world.

In doing further research on this word, I found the following:

quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumene

Ecumene (also spelled œcumene or oikoumene) a term originally used in the Greco-Roman world to refer to the inhabited earth (or at least the known part of it). The term derives from the Greek οἰκουμένη (oikouménē, the feminine present middle participle of the verb οἰκέω, oikéō, "to inhabit"), short for οἰκουμένη γῆ "inhabited world".[1] In modern connotations it refers either to the projection of a united Christian Church or to world civilizations.

Over time, the word came to mean the civilized world, and to be synonymous with the Roman Empire. This usage continued after the division of the Empire into East and West, and the East Roman Emperors would use the term to describe their imperial administration. Constantinople itself came to be known as the "Ecumenical City". The word was adopted within Christianity, especially for Synods called by the Emperors and composed of bishops throughout the world (see Ecumenical Councils).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
Bob97 had an excellent post about how this error crept first into Protestantism, then Evangelicalism:

quote:

Luther became convinced that the prophecies of Daniel were about the Roman Catholic Church and that Papal Rome was indeed the antichrist of the Bible prophecy. Hundreds of thousands of people left the RCC. In retaliation the RCC began a campaign to counter the claims of Luther at the Council of Trent. The Jesuits were commissioned by the Pope to develop a new interpretation of Scripture that would counteract the Protestant application of the RCC. Francisco Ribera, a Jesuit priest published a commentary on Revelation as a counter-interpretation in 1590. Ribera applied all of Revelation except the earliest chapters to the end time rather than to the history of the Church. Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild the temple. “Ribera denied the Protestant Scriptural Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2) as seated in the church of God—asserted by Augustine, Jerome, Luther and many reformers. He set on an infidel Antichrist, outside the church of God.

For almost 300 years the Jesuit Futurism remained largely inside the RCC but in the 1800s the process of adoption into the Protestants began. There were many steps to this adoption but it really all came to a head with Nelson Darby when he became a strong promoter of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture followed by a one man antichrist; this teaching became the hallmark of Dispensationalist. It was Darby who laid much of the foundation for the present popular removal of Daniel’s 70th week away from history and applied it to a future tribulation after the rapture. Cyrus Ingerson Scofield later adopted the teaching of Darby into his Scofield Reference Bible and this doctrine became firmly established inside the 20th century American Church

These are the facts as I see them from my research.

While Bob's source deals mainly with the interpretation of Daniel 9, it applies to our discussion because Daniel 9 is specifically mentioned in Matt.24:15!

So the translators have been displaying a Jesuit bias when interpreting Matthew 24!

So look at the context of Matthew 24:14-22 again with the Greek properly translated and see if it doesn't make more sense:

quote:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the ROMAN EMPIRE (oikoumene) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the TREMBLING (tromos) come.

quote:

And this good news about the Kingdom shall be heralded in all the INHABITED WORLD for evidence to all of the non-Jewish-nations; and then shall the END come.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stormcrow

quote:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:14-22 (KJV)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stormcrow
And now, the parallel passage from Luke that interprets Matthew:

quote:

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24 (KJV)

In fact, despite my earlier contention that verses 4-9 of Matthew 24 coincided with the first 5 seals in Revelation 6, I am now willing to admit I may be wrong on that count (still evaluating this).

Furthermore, on those grounds, I believe Daniel's 70th week was finished in the destruction of Jerusalem and the desolation of Israel, as Luke wrote:

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

None of this affects my earlier posts on the harmonization of the 6th Seal of Revelation 6 and 7 to Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

(Edited to remove absolute statements, as I am still working on this.)

Luke 21 interprets Matthew 24 for us. And what does Luke write again?

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The destruction of Jerusalem completed God's wrath against Israel ("days of vengeance"). Israel was reborn in 1948, and Jerusalem was retaken in 1967, signaling the end of its being "trampled under foot by the gentiles."

Any further discussion of eschatology - I believe - needs to start with Israel's rebirth and Jerusalem's reoccupation by the Jews.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Roy, I'm not here to argue Preterism but the facts I listed are based on more than just a few facts.

Continuous Historical

Waldenses: In the "Noble Lessons" (1120) declared the Antichrist to be the Papacy 1100
Joachim Abbas: The harlot city reigning over the kings of the earth undoubtedly meant Rome - "Commentary on the Apocalypse" 1183
Wycliff: The Papacy is the Antichrist of Scripture 1380
John Huss: 1415
Martin Luther: 1522
Zwingli: 1524
John Calvin: 1536
Melancthon: 1543
William Tyndale: 1550
John Knox: 1558
John Foxe: 1586
Thomas Brightman: Opposes Jesuit Ribera's futurism 1644
Isaac Newton 1691
E.B. Elliott: "Horae Apocalypticae" 1851
John Thomas: "Eureka" - Christadelphian exposition on Revelation. 1861
Dr. Grattan Guinness: "The Approaching End of the Age"2 1894
Albert Close: "Antichrist and his Ten Kingdoms" 1917
Baron Porcelli: 1927
F. Walker: "Watchman! What of the Night?" 1942
E.M. Richards: Prophecy magazine of Seventh Day Adventists 1975
Eric Peters: Old Fashioned Prophecy Magazine
Barnes: "Notes on the New Testament"

Futurist

Bellarmine: Roman Catholic expositor 1576
Ribera: Jesuit, founds Futurist school 1580
Alcazar: 1614
Lacunza: Jesuit, published book (4 vols.) "Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty" using Ben Ezra, a converted Jew as a false author. Had a great influence on Protestants. 1701
Samuel MaitlandProtestant librarian to the Archbishop of Canterbury who began tractarian movement publicizing futurism. 1826
Edward Irving: Scottish Presbyterian minister discovers false authorship of Lacunza's work and translates it from Spanish to English. 1830
Darby: Reads Irving's translation of Lacunza's work, founds Plymouth Brethren and introduces futurism to America. 1831
Dr. James Todd: . 1838
John Henry Newman: 1840
E.W. Bullinger: "Companion Bible"1877
Douay Version: 1941
Scofield Bible: 1975
Oral Roberts
Billy Graham
Back to the Bible
Carl McIntire
Herbert Armstrong
De Haan "Lutheran Hour"

Please note the dates of those listed.

Please excuse the formatting but I didn't want to retype all the info.

In Messiah,

Boe

quote:

however, one should NOT see this as “the destruction of Jerusalem completing God’s wrath against Isra’el.”

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stormcrow

quote:

however, one should NOT see this as “the destruction of Jerusalem completing God’s wrath against Isra’el.”

I disagree:

Read Ezekiel starting in chapter 4 and going through chapter 11 to see what God saw in them and why He judged them so harshly! Here's a snippet:

9 'And because of all your abominations, I will do among you what I have not done, and the like of which I will never do again. 10 'Therefore, fathers will eat their sons among you, and sons will eat their fathers; for I will execute judgments on you, and scatter all your remnant to every wind. Ezekiel 5:9-10 (NASB77)

11 'So as I live,' declares the Lord God, 'surely, because you have defiled My sanctuary with all your detestable idols and with all your abominations, therefore I will also withdraw, and My eye shall have no pity and I will not spare. 12 'One third of you will die by plague or be consumed by famine among you, one third will fall by the sword around you, and one third I will scatter to every wind, and I will unsheathe a sword behind them. 13

'Thus My anger will be spent, and I will satisfy My wrath on them, and I shall be appeased; then they will know that I, the Lord, have spoken in My zeal when I have spent My wrath upon them. 14 'Moreover, I will make you a desolation and a reproach among the nations which surround you, in the sight of all who pass by. Ezekiel 5:11-14 (NASB77)

Ezekiel 4-11 relates specifically to the fall of Jerusalem and the desolation of Israel fulfilled in 70 AD.

Rest of post here:

http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=4790799